#72 - Cleared for Takeoff: Updated FAA Mental Health Regulations with Joe LoRusso

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to Passive Income Pilots, where pilots upgrade their money.

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[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Joe, thank you so much for coming back on the show.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, quite a lot's changed or been written or decided upon since our last episode, which was

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: episode number...

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: 51.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, 51, where we had Joe on to talk about pilot mental health changes that were coming to

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: aviation medical certificates. I think this is really important whether you're a passenger

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: who's maybe concerned about your pilot mental health or you're a pilot who's

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to go out there and seek medical treatment and maybe need help and we're

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_00]: afraid to do that because of the restrictive regulations. But we're bringing Joe back to talk

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: about, hey, what happened? What's going on? What's the latest and greatest?

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. So when we left off on that episode, we just had the ARC came out

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and the ARC was pretty robust, definitely more robust than any ARC that we've seen before

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: where if I'm not mistaken, it was something like 24 to 26 recommendations

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: somewhere in there about what the FAA needs to improve upon with focus, of course, on

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: The big question was, what's the FAA going to do? Right? They could take the ARC and they

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: could say, hey, thank you very much for the suggestions. Thank you for the recommendations

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and then go about business as usual, which we all kind of thought was going to start

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_01]: happening. Certainly look like that or they could start changing some policies,

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: changing some CACIs, changing some guidelines. Fortunately, I am pleased to announce that

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: they have chosen the latter and we do have some changes now. So we have quite a bit.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: We've had a lot of AME updates that come out in the guidelines and the CACI world.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: For listeners who are not aware, the FAA publishes on their guideline, the AME

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: guideline page. You can Google it. You don't have to be an AME or a doctor.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can see the updated criteria for each condition and new things that they come out

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: with. For example, they added a weight loss medication back in January and that was

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: in on the new list. So literally anything having to do with paramedical conditions,

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: being updated, changed, all that good stuff, you can find it on the AME guideline page.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we will link to that in the show notes.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Perfect. Yeah, sounds good.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Look down at your show notes while you're listening to this episode,

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_02]: you can follow along. That's awesome.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So if we go back to kind of the start of the year a little bit,

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: FAA expanded and put new antidepressants in the list. So we got SNRIs. So we just had

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: right around the time of the arc, we had WellBeatring added to the list of Select,

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Select, Pro, Prozac and Zola. Then we had SNRIs added to that list now.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We had Symbalta is one that's commonly used that we see clinically a lot.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: We had FXorg added to the list. Again, that's another one that we commonly see.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: The nice thing as well is they added pretty defined notes.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's usually always the question is, Joe, I'm not taking one that is on that list.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not taking a medication that's on that list, an SNRI or an SSRI that's not on the list.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: What do we think? Are you going to get through?

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So nice thing about that that came out in April is we got some notes.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We got some clear notes.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Then we got a new table altogether for mental health conditions such as PTSD.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: PTSD has been a very big one with the VA investigation, which by the way is still

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: ongoing. We have not seen any change with that.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I know there's going to be a lot of people asking about that.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That is still one of the most frustrating things that I've ever seen in aviation.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: That is still going on right now, but we got a PTSD tool.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So we had different classifications of PTSD now, uncomplicated anxiety,

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: depression and related conditions that an AME can use in the decision of whether to issue

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: at the time of the medical application or whether to defer the issue down to CAMI

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: or on Federal Air Surgeon's office.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: That came out in May. That was a big drop for us.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That was May 29th.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: In addition to that, we got new very, very recently.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We got new criteria for TBIs, which again kind of goes to the mental health side.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: They were a lot of times they were one and the same.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So we got new neurological evaluations for neurocognitive impairment.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we now have a brand new AME tool for deciding seasonal depression,

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: a new accelerated fast track for anxiety, kind of the catch-alls, right?

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: That the FA was really, really big on the generalized anxiety disorder,

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the JD, the seasonal depression, the adjustment disorder, all that good stuff.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_01]: We now have a fast track where an AME can look at it and say,

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: all right, does the airman meet A, B, C and D?

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: If they do, I can issue a medical.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: If they don't, I got to defer to CAMI and to Oak City.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Still not super fantastic?

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But much better for sure.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_02]: This is great to hear that there's some movement.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: How does the rubber meet the road here?

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Because we talked a lot about folks that might be struggling with a family member passing away

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and seeking therapy.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: What's the story on therapy now?

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you do that?

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Because you're going to have to go through something to get to the SSRIs.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_02]: SSRIs stand for?

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: The selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Reuptake inhibitor.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have to go through some sort of medical professional to get there, right?

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So what does that path look like?

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Are they still having to check the box when they're going through it

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: to say that yes, I got professional counseling or how does this work now?

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Are there any changes to that part of it?

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Great question.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: There are no changes so far that we've seen to the 8,500, especially box 19,

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: which is I think the question that you're asking there is 19.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Have you seen a medical professional in the last three years?

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And on 19 it was have you seen a medical professional having to do a counseling,

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: not a counselor.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So the counseling signifying that you need to report counselors,

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: therapists, psychiatrists, psychologists, all that good stuff.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So that still needs to happen.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We've not seen any changes to the 8,500.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: However, the new fast track that came out,

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: literally it came out June 26, 2024 for anxiety, depression, and quote other related conditions.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We do have diagnoses or symptomology that an AME can check the box, yes, that existed

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: or yes, that exists and I can still issue as a doctor.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So you can still have a diagnosis like generalized anxiety disorder.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Have you been treated in the past two years is one of the criteria?

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes or no.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Have there been medications used because of it?

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes or no.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Which ones?

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And then is there a history?

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Is this recurrent?

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Is this something that has come up over and over throughout life?

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Is this something that is situational like a loved one passing or something like that?

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And depending on those answers, it's a pretty exhaustive list.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: There's nine criteria on that.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Depending on the answers, the AME can issue a medical at the end of that

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: so that even though it was reported in the 8,500,

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that does not mean like in the past that an airman had no ability to walk out of

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that office with a medical or not.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: That is fantastic.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Joe, overall rank this set from a one to a 10.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: 10 being you know, this is good, you're satisfied.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: A one being this sucked.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: What would you give it a score on?

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah, great question.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: All right so oh man that is a fantastic question.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'll tell you I'm very excited.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: This has been as you all know,

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I was beginning to wonder if I was ever going to just die on this hill of no change,

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: no recognition of mental health,

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: no recognition of any sort of situational anxiety, depression, anything like that.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought the FAA was just going to sit in their rut

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and we were never going to see an advancement.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So I will say and hey, I'm super excited.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, it's fantastic.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That not only did the ARC come out but that the FAA said you know what?

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to start taking some of these recommendations

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're just going to throw them in now.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Instead of waiting for the next five years,

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: we're going to start implementing them now.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a big pressure, a big thank you to this industry,

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: to people like y'all, to the senators.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: This has been all over the board of people not taking their foot off the gas on this

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and holding the FAA accountable.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Say this is real, pilots are humans

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and we need the regulations, the policies, the guidelines to reflect that.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's fantastic.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: That's amazing.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: That's so cool.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there any continuation?

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there like another follow-up or is this just it's finalized, it's done,

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: it's been adopted?

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So all we've seen now is policy changes.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: We've just seen changes in the AME guidelines and the CACI tables.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We have not seen regulation changes yet.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I know Senator Caston put forward a bill to try and make some regulation change

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: to have the regs reflect what the CACIs are saying,

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: what the guidelines are saying, but we've not seen anything like that.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So the work is far from over.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: We still have a lot of push to do.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It'd be fantastic to have the regulations reflect this dynamic period right now

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: in our medical history.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: As of now they don't.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I am very excited, I will tell you, for the recent decision of Chevron.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm looking forward to seeing how that's going to affect the FAA

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and more specifically how that's going to affect decisions

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: that come out of the Federal Air Surgeon's office.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you recap that for anybody that hasn't been following along?

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: The Chevron doctrine is something that has stood for a very long time in this country

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and very simply, I know I'm going to have like a bunch of historical legal scholars

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: jump down my throat on this, but very simply they explain it like in five version of this

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_01]: courts would always defer to the administrations

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_01]: with regards to the interpretation of their regulations.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So a great one on this is like 91-119, right?

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Says that we're allowed to deviate from altitudes in an airport environment

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: as long as we're either taking off our landing from a quote unquote suitable runway.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So under the Chevron standard, if I were to go in front of a court,

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the court would defer to the FAA for what is suitable.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's your regulation.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: FAA, you wrote it, you enforce it, you tell us what suitable is.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And the FAA could say, well, this is suitable in our eyes.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the courts would say, all right, thank you.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's your regulation.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We believe you.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: The fall of Chevron now is you got to introduce evidence, right?

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So the FAA would have to put forward evidence saying

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: this is what we think a suitable landing is under 91-118.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And I could put forward a bunch of experts saying,

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: no, disagree, this is what a suitable landing is with the industry.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And then those experts would go together and a judge would weigh it and go,

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the regulations mean this, Joe wins.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Very, very interesting.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I love seeing that from an aviation context.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: That helps to really break it down.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for sure.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: For sure.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Can anything be made retroactive from what has been approved?

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: In what way?

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So like, let's say I was on some type of medication

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_00]: before that knocked me offline and now it's approved.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So does Cami then release?

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Did a bunch of pilots just get their medicals back potentially?

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: No?

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, no.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We have been trying that with the PTSD side of the house.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So the PTSD side of the house, in that big VA investigation,

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: there were veterans that got implicated for lying on their medical,

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: quote unquote, for fraudulently executing their 8500.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And these pilots were saying, Joe, I've never treated for this in my life.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I've never seen a psychologist or psychiatrist.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: The VA gave me a percentage, but I don't treat for PTSD.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not even part of my mental.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Those people we have put forward under the new protocol and said,

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: hey, you guys can issue AMEs.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: You can now issue a medical to these individuals.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I could tell you that a lot of them are still not issuing.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've also had AMEs that would try and issue.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But when they issue, the airman's file was still flagged for legal investigation.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not getting solved.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of one of those things like the HEMS program, right?

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Where the program used to be five years.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And then all of a sudden, April Fool's Day of 2020, it became lifetime, right?

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And the pilots who were set to come out April 21st of the HEMS program,

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: all of a sudden just got extended for life with no grandfathering in or anything like that.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So I would say the answer is that the very long-winded answer, sorry,

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to what probably could have been a short answer.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But I have not yet seen that happen.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't seen the windfall of, hey, we, the regs change, the policy change.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Excuse me, not the regs change.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: The policy and the guidelines change.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Give me my medical now.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I've not seen that.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to talk about the applicability of this.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say you're someone who's struggling with some short-term anxiety or depression

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and you want to move forward with some treatment based on these new regulations.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: How do they go about that?

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: How does someone go about that?

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And how do you know that your AME is aware of these new rules?

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't know about you, but most AMEs that I've been to are about 100 years old.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And how do you know that they're keeping up with something that just dropped?

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_02]: We're recording this on July 10th.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_02]: You're saying this latest rule came out on June 24th.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: That was 16 days ago.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So are AMEs really keeping up on this?

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We had somebody named Dan Monolux come on who's an AME and who's the pilot med.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: He would likely be someone good to go to, but if you don't live in that area,

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: how do you know that you're going to an AME that's going to be

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: symbiotic with these new rule changes?

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: That is a fantastic question.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And you are 100% right.

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: You hit the nail on the head.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We are seeing an AME age group that is just aging out.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're not seeing a lot of AMEs coming in to replace them,

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: mostly because the hoopsie have to jump through to become an AME are pretty crazy.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: The regional gets to choose and then you have to go to this class and in person

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you pay the fees.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So most docs are like, yeah, I don't want to deal with that.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And you got to deal with billing yourself.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: There is no insurance.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you walk the line of, well, am I really a doctor?

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Am I an evaluator?

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Am I a government employee?

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Am I not a government employee?

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Because fun fact, there is no written document between AMEs and the FAA.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no contract that says you will do A and the government will do B.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't exist.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like a handshake.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, please evaluate on behalf of us.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the one week class.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we are not getting a lot of AMEs replacing the old AMEs coming out.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And we are finding that we're having to do a lot of education, a lot of education.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And I always laugh because there are still some of those AMEs that are kind of stuck

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: in their old ways of saying, you know, why are you guys involved?

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: This airman doesn't need an attorney and stuff like that.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yet at the same time, we're informing them of the new policy changes.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you guide by changes saying, well, this is why we have to be informed

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: because, you know, by definition, we're not an advocate.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't be an advocate.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to be an evaluator.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So the pilot needs an advocate, somebody who's knocking on the door of the AME's office

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: saying, hey, did you know on June 26th they defined what the FA released on May 29th.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Because these policies and guidelines are super dynamic.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it definitely, you know, if somebody were to go in that situation

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and say, you know, I just lost a loved one, we always recommend, you know,

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: call an advocate, you know, call an attorney and just say, hey, this is what I have.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of messed up.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So call an attorney before you call a therapist.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, just say, hey, what do we think?

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what can I do?

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: What can I do?

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Like before we ring a bell that we can't unring, you know, and honestly,

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: it's easy to run through these guidelines when you know where they are and say,

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: all right, look, the FA is going to look for history of this.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Any involuntary mental holes, hospitalization, suicide attempts, right?

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Check all those boxes.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you meet all those boxes to be issued, then awesome.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Go get help, right?

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Go get issued.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: If not, then be aware of it.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying don't get help.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying be aware of what you need to do to have successful intervention.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Excellent.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: This has just been really helpful.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I think it's important to understand how awesome this is because

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: normally when you have an aviation rulemaking committee, an ARC,

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it took more than a decade to change the flight and duty time regulations.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when you, you know, I mean, this is they've been working on the flight and duty

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: duty time regulations since the 90s and hadn't updated them in over 50 years.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we've been working on that since the 90s.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And then they came back, I think, in the 2000s.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And then they came back again 2009 time frame.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was like 2008, 2009.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And then they came out with something and then, you know, that was took so long.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And so hats off for swift action here to actually change.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of agree with you, Joe.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is great that we've gotten some major wins,

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, in short order as well.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So very good.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited to see you're very right.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've never seen this type of dynamic movement from the administration

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: in response to an ARC ever.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm just super excited to see what we're going to do with Chevron.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm wondering if it's going to make a decision,

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: make any impact on how the FAA works these cases or not.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Because now the FAA is going to have to substantiate their decisions.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So they have new policies, new guidelines,

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and they can no longer put out a letter that says,

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: sorry, you have generalized anxiety disorder.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: You do not meet the medical criteria.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that is no longer enough.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: The FAA can't, if you look at, there's a great case,

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: a great decision that came out of the Court of Appeals,

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: District of Columbia, that was Erwin VFAA.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And that came out in maybe 2021, December of 2021.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And that decision, there was a great line from one of the appellate judges

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: that says to the FAA, you cannot be your own expert.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to substantiate your decisions.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that time Chevron was still standing.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that time, that was more just a shot over the bow, right?

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Of like, hey, you guys can't be issuing one word letters anymore

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and one sentence decisions anymore.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But now that's not a shot over the bow anymore.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a shot at the side of the ship.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So the FAA literally has to now substantiate their decisions in letters.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise we're right for appeal.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: We're right for the Court of Appeals saying,

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: look, you guys produced your evidence.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That was a great sentence that said you were disqualified

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: because of generalized anxiety disorder.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Great sentence, very nice structure.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what we did clinically.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's all the experts that we put forward

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that says that your regulation is one arbitrary and capricious

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and your decision making under your own regulation

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: is certainly arbitrary and capricious with your one sentence.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So certainly gonna be fun.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know I think I'm hoping,

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I know we're in lines at the Court of Appeals right now

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm hoping that we're one of the first

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that get to test that standard.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: That's great.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is something where,

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I've ever done this on the show,

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_02]: but I wanna pat ourselves on the back for like 30 seconds here

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and just say, Ryan, I'm so glad that we started this show

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and we have this platform

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that can get this kind of information out to the pilot group.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Joe, I know you've got a lot of stuff on YouTube

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and you're doing amazing work getting this out there,

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: but I'm so happy that we have this platform

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and we can bring this kind of information to the pilot group.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you know someone who is struggling,

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: send this episode to them.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Share this information with them

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: because we're educating and for free, right?

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But on top of that, we're connecting you.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: We're expanding your network

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and putting good Rolodex cards in your pocket

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: like Joe here for those times that you need them.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And you got this thing called attorney client privilege, right?

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You give Joe a dollar, it's private, it's confidential.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're not sure

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: if you've got something going on in your life

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and you don't wanna tell somebody,

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: the last person you wanna tell first is your AME.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're not sure and you want to

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: have attorney client privilege

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and you wanna protect yourself, call Joe.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Joe will tell you exactly what you cannot do.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you don't want that,

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean again, I'm not giving legal advice.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just having a friendly conversation.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Write the email and mark the email

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: as privileged and confidential

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: so that it's not discoverable, right?

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you can confess to Joe what's going on.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And hey, if you really wanna be careful,

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: call him and have a conversation

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00]: so it's not in writing or anything, right?

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And then just get it out there, get out what you're doing

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and then Joe can help you sort of make sure

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: you navigate whatever you're going through

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and protect your medical

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and help you get the help that you need.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I echo Tate.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is great to get this

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and share this information out there.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I know this is a passive income pilot show

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: but guess what guys, like if you're a pilot

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're listening to the show,

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: like losing your medical kind of

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: gets rid of a lot of income.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why we wanna have

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_00]: this kind of information out there.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, I just really appreciate you Joe

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: coming back to the show, giving us an update.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I gotta be honest, I've got four years of experience

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_00]: working on Capitol Hill

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and working on aviation rulemaking committees

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and seeing this whole process from the inside out.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_00]: This is like, I cannot believe how fast this happened.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And so hats off to the FAA,

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: hats off to all those members on the arc

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_00]: because these aren't like paid people

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that work for the FAA.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: They're taking their time, they're going to DC,

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: they're working their butts off,

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: they're spending long hours and long days

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: making these recommendations,

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: they're doing tons of studies.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Trust me, I've seen it

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and we think that it's the FAA doing all this stuff.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: There's people that committed their life,

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: their time and out of their schedule

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: to go to DC and sit through

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: these aviation rulemaking committees

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and help make it better for the industry.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So I know that goes under appreciated

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: but I just wanna say thank you

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to the members of the arc that moved quickly

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and made this happen.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So big time.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree, I'll echo both of your sentiments.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I can remember a time a long time ago

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: where I think I put out on LinkedIn,

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I said, hey, if all of us just don't fly for one day,

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: there has to be something,

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: there has to be some change.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: The FAA has to listen to us

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and we have to get changed in that way.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Like there has to be something monumental

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and symbolic and some sort of tide shifting movement

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: for the government to listen to us

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and give pilots a little bit more power on our future,

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: on our health, on our ability to serve the public

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and fly it and live the life that we love.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember that being like a prolific,

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: like I had just reached the end of it.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just so frustrated with no change.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like that's happened.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I know we haven't done that.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I know we haven't all just stopped one day

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: but I feel like that's happened.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like this industry has just all,

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: we've all just kind of joined arms

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and said, that's it, let's just go.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just get this change done.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we got the support from, you know,

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: podcast like y'all.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is like so many people

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: have reached out about that episode

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: of talking about this

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and we got support from Capitol Hill.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We got support from state representatives.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like even though we didn't do that,

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, let's all not fly for a day.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We did.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We had a huge shift in the industry

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is exactly what can happen

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: if all of us just say,

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: hey, we're human, we need help.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Please listen to us.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We can get changed on immediately.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Big thanks to you two for doing what you do

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and really, really, really proud

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: to be a part of this industry.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: That's so great.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Joe, we're going to drop your information

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_02]: right in the show notes.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're listening to this

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and you or someone you know needs help,

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02]: remember contact an attorney

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: before you contact a therapist.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to leave your contact information

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: right down there.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Feel free to click it.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank y'all very much.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for your time, Joe.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_00]: On to the next one.