#51 - Navigating Turbulence: Mental Health & Legal Safeguards for Pilots with Joe LoRusso

[00:00:00] not Councilor, anybody who's providing counseling so that's a licensed social worker that's a therapist. That's a psychologist. That's a psychiatrist. That's an MD. That's literally anybody who is providing you counseling for mental health symptomology. So you have to report literally anything like if a pilot goes and one of their loved ones pass away, right? And they're just dealing, they want to go talk to somebody about grief, right? And you know the grief counselor. That's instantly reported on box 19 on the 8500. So what do pilots do in that case? They don't do that, right?

[00:00:30] They don't see a counselor, they don't see a therapist. Welcome to Passive Income Pilots where pilots upgrade their money. This is the definitive source for personal finance and investment tactics for aviators. We interview world renowned experts and share these lessons with the flying community.

[00:00:58] So if you're ready for practical knowledge and insights, let's roll. Welcome back to Passive Income Pilots everyone. I'm Tait Duryea, he with Ryan Gibson. How's everybody doing?

[00:01:06] Tait, I'm excited to talk about today's guest. I mean we're talking about all the heavy items here. It really is. Yeah.

[00:01:13] This is an opportunity to talk about blurry thing that none of us understand which is aeromedical hymns. You know the fact that pilots can't go and get therapy. It's really really good stuff and there's some incredibly actionable takeaways in there.

[00:01:27] Yeah, what I love too is we dive into not just mental health issues and hymns but what happens if you get a DUI? What happens if you get a pullover? And in the end this is a financial podcast.

[00:01:37] So we talk about sort of the mechanics behind aviation law, what jobs there are. How pilots can moonlight in different positions in that.

[00:01:45] So we kind of expose some more things that maybe you thought it like never thought of but you can even do in the aviation industry and a little bit more than just the mental health stuff. So without further ado, let's go to the show.

[00:01:56] Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. Absolutely pleasure. How are you? Excellent. You know I want to you know I was reading up a little bit about your background. You said you were doing some hurricane chasing. I definitely want to get into that.

[00:02:08] But yeah, give us a little background on who you are. Where you come from? Yeah, I've had an interesting flying career. I think I've been kind of all over the board.

[00:02:17] Yeah, what kind of talk to us about that? I mean just kind of give us a little bit about your flying background. You know how you got into working for as the director of aviation or as a Ramos law.

[00:02:27] Yeah, yeah. Ramos law. Yeah. So I've been in aviation my whole life but I'm kind of one of those odd ducks where nobody in my family was a pilot or an aviation.

[00:02:35] So started as alignment at 13 at a private airport obviously as a 13 year old drive in the jet track. But started flying before I could drive and then have just been looking for weird and unique ways to continue flying.

[00:02:49] So was as soon as I was able to started competing in aerobatics for a while. My first airplane was a satabria.

[00:02:56] So now I fly a steer before 50 and been been air showing since 2012. And then I'm a part 91 guy through and through. So never was 135, never was 121.

[00:03:08] Fly a handful of jets on the side for people for 91 families, but then I also do some government work as well. So flew a a Lair 35 still flying the Lair 35 since 2018 and it's a contract company and a contract set NASA and NKAR and NOAA.

[00:03:27] And we basically weather hunt. So a bunch of instruments that hang off the bottom of it literally took that airplane around the world from Denver to Denver the long way just continuing to head east.

[00:03:39] We were in the desert for a while with that airplane. So flying through some huboobs and some weather out there. We're in the South China Sea for a while as part of NASA's Camtou X and typhoons.

[00:03:50] I've been with that airplane in Houston trying to hunt hurricanes and then all through the Midwest in tornado alley with it as well.

[00:04:00] Just flying through convective storms. What's the worst turbulence you've hit? And what kind of storm was it?

[00:04:06] So it was it was actually I know exactly which one it was.

[00:04:10] So remember it. Oh yeah, oh yeah, we had we had a person of prominence in the back. It was during a NASA's Camtou X and and we hit turbulence coming off of a typhoon just south of Japan and we hit 7000 up 7000 down pretty quick.

[00:04:29] And it took the wall, the interior wall of the lear jet off and then full rubber jungle all that good stuff. So yeah, that was the worst and unfortunately that individual in the back of a prominence was not fully strapped in like you know had the sea put on but loose.

[00:04:48] And wind to the ceiling and got a little get a little injury on that and you know hitting his head on the lights. So by the way, rubber jungle for those listening is when all the oxygen mass deploy from the sea.

[00:05:00] So it's a little chaotic when that happens. Okay, Joe. So every question that a pilot always get answers have you ever been afraid or what your scary flight? Were you afraid during that time or were you like?

[00:05:10] Yeah, you know I've been through so much stuff with that lear. You know we've had a pain in now twice. We've been through engines. You know it just that thing is just such a tank. It honestly is just a tank of an airplane. So I've never been super terrified in that it's it's always done exactly what we ask and even in the times when it's not doing what we ask, it'll get your home.

[00:05:32] So.

[00:05:34] Well, you know we you know I know you're also really involved in community service. You have that memorial scholarship fund for the Colorado Soccer Association which is very cool. Thanks for thanks for doing that. I'm sure the kids yeah love that but you know some of the things that we want to get into on the show is just your experience and aviation law.

[00:05:52] Yeah and we want to we're actually going to change things up a little bit on today's show and go into pilot mental health issues or the issues surrounding mental health and some of the things in the industry.

[00:06:04] And we're going to get a little we're going to get deep into that today. We're really going to kind of expose that and I think that's why we're really excited to bring you on but you know

[00:06:12] we're also going to look at kind of your business and sort of how to make money in aviation law and you know because this is a financial podcast but we're going to mix a lot of things in here. You know cool weather, flying stories and super interesting with aviation law with pilot mental health.

[00:06:28] We're going to like bust everything open today so take you want to take us away on kind of the first question absolutely. Yeah so can joke we kick things off by just giving us the context of how you got into law in the first place.

[00:06:40] Why you chose the specific practice that you do what called you to that and and give us some context on what that looks like.

[00:06:48] Yeah so I was I owned a flight school for just under five years and during that time I saw students that lost medicals that were unable to get medicals we had an aircraft that had a mechanical that we ended up having to put in a field and that ended up going to litigation.

[00:07:04] There was just a lot it turned out there was a lot of legal surrounding my life and I was not in it and I eventually got tired of paying attorneys. I got tired of dealing with the FAA directly without having the backing of being able to say I was an attorney and and at that time my wife was already in law school so I thought you know what I'm going to law school.

[00:07:24] So when joined her in law school with the idea that I was just going to go into aviation not really knowing what that meant at that time I was thinking actually that I was going to do transactions.

[00:07:34] When to school in Kansas and I was going to try and do the lobby on buying and selling jets and and then while I was clerking we started getting a bunch of medical issues coming through with the firm that I was working for

[00:07:46] and I got thrown into that into those cases and immediately realized you know oh my gosh there's there's a bigger calling here right there's a bigger calling to help this industry because nobody is advocating for these pilots.

[00:07:58] So immediately got out of law school with that focus doing part 91 drivers and helping them get their medical and then slowly but surely started doing 135 drivers started doing 121 drivers the unions started calling trying to represent pilots and make sure that their certificates were protected.

[00:08:15] So I kind of got forced into that into that industry just purely on necessity and need from the industry.

[00:08:22] And you work with him's and cardiovascular issues so there's a lot to dive into here Ryan I know you're you're dying to jump in what do you got well I mean I just want to lay it out there I mean let's just talk about the 800 pound girl in the room which is you know pilot mental health.

[00:08:36] You know I'm going to play a clip from from a recent event and you know we can if you're not familiar with what's going on in the industry the recent Alaska flight German wings you know countless things that happened in the industry that have really just kind of been detrimental to everybody right and we're going to dive into that but without further ado.

[00:08:59] Over the weekend disturbing new details from flight 9525's mangled cockpit voice recorder published by German newspaper build the CBR transcript was leaked way too early in the investigation.

[00:09:13] Tonight there is a major development in that tragedy in the Elbs investigators now revealing what they have learned about that co pilot.

[00:09:20] The chilling internet searches they found on his computer searching suicide and cockpit doors so obviously very chilling.

[00:09:28] What happened and you know as a pilot there's there's a box 19 on the 8500-8 right and it basically says if you are seeing a counselor a therapist a social worker an MD a PhD whatever it might beat with regards to mental health concerns that could be an issue like you have to report it talk about that and give us your kind of your insights on that Joe.

[00:09:51] Yeah so before before diving right into 19 I'll tell you so I actually started my career by putting part 91 pilots into the him's program.

[00:09:59] So I dealt with a lot of substance abuse lot of substance dependence and that was kind of my focus at the time and then eventually I started realizing through more and more cases country wide that really our problem is not kind of the stereotypical drunk pilot right that's really not the problem in the industry.

[00:10:16] The problem is self medicating in the industry so pilots turn to alcohol because alcohol is permissible right you can use it eight hours bottle of the throttle point for your loud to use it the FAA doesn't slap you for using it unless you use it to an excess or you have a problem right.

[00:10:33] So I found more and more of the pilots that I was dealing with with the him's program were not really alcoholics they were dealing with a mental health issue and they were self-medicating with alcohol.

[00:10:42] And the reason really is box 18 and box 19 at the 85 hundred dash eight box 19 is just so tight as you said Ryan is so tight in that you know generally it's it's heavy seen.

[00:10:54] You have to list all your medical providers from the last three years and you know typically we think of you know general md's like a like a primary care physician or maybe you got like dermatologist or dentists or you know an eye doctor or somebody got the you with list.

[00:11:09] If you go into the instructions on box 19 it says that you also have to list anybody who is providing counseling not counselor anybody who's providing counseling so that's a license social worker that's a therapist that's a counselor that's a psychologist that's a psychiatrist that's an md that's literally anybody who is providing you counseling for mental health symptomology.

[00:11:33] So you have to report literally anything like if a pilot goes and one of their loved ones pass away right and they're just dealing they want to go talk to somebody about grief right and deal with the grief counselor that's instantly reported on that box 19 on the 85 hundred so what do pilots do in that case they don't do that right they just don't see a mental health professional they don't see a counselor they don't see it their

[00:11:55] and they let those conditions we know through through the DSM and through the industry clinically that those conditions compound right there's only so much a person can take right what starts out as grief could end up in major depressive disorder right a year down the road and now the sun were facing like what you just played were facing a German wings episode right it's been it's been eye opening over over the the latter part of the last decade just kind of seeing that transition away from you know really really diving into the why why do pilots

[00:12:25] deal with mental health how do they deal with mental health how do they not deal with mental health and just choose a drink it's been it's been kind of a crazy past 10 years.

[00:12:36] And you know the thing is that I think people need to realize is like we are people before repilates yeah and you know just because you you know have a great record and you get your ratings and you get your flying hours and you get hired by a great airline we're still people yeah and people require you know these types of

[00:12:54] things as services to be good people right and so yeah you know it is kind of a squeaky clean job right requirement you you know you can't have any you know the DUI as a kid that could be a kiss a death you know depending on the airline the

[00:13:10] any blemishes in your background any any potential drug use and things like that these are all good things to protect the industry and they're well intentioned sure but we have to be realistic with

[00:13:20] people being people before their pilots you know it's a huge thing so go ahead tape would you know I mean we all kind of know that the F.A. is 30 40 years behind the industry you know I was listening to a little bit

[00:13:31] of you talking about their antiquated cardiology system where or somebody gets you know they want to look at it they don't even have the expertise versus you know cutting edge you know medical centers know what they're doing yeah you know I think this this follows the same lines where the F.A. is just behind the

[00:13:46] industry do you think there's any hope of the next decade of them sort of catching up what do we need to talk about how to just skirt the issue and get around it I have more hope now than I've ever had so this is kind of been over the past 10

[00:14:00] years I felt like you know the boy who cried wolf you know like just by myself just yelling saying hey this is a problem is a problem is a problem is a problem falling on deaf ears right just no response at all until all

[00:14:14] the sudden you know we have you know after obviously German wings was a while ago but we have the horizon pilot right who tried to pull the t-handles I mean last can't play we have the student in University of

[00:14:25] North Dakota took his life and in his suicide note he referenced the medical standards of the F.A. and not being able to seek treatment most recently we have that student who rented an airplane down in Texas right and flew it off the

[00:14:39] reservation and told ATC was done and drove it into the ground right we've had a lot of episodes and events here recently in a very short period that all the sudden Congress and the senator saying who what's going on the

[00:14:51] MTSB is saying what's going on which is forcing the F.A. to say oh right and so now we have the F.A. doing the art committee right there modernizing the the mental health standards policies regulations throughout honestly they're not only doing mental

[00:15:07] health they're they're supposedly doing everything right there's supposed to modernize the entire clinical realm and determine what really is

[00:15:14] aeromatically significant and we're expecting their they're required to produce some sort of recommendation or some sort of guidance at the end of March so I will tell you I am more

[00:15:25] optimistic now than I ever have been if you were to ask me a year ago what we're supposed to do but it said there's no hope I mean there's no

[00:15:33] hope yeah and that's a good point I mean just just for those that are not unfamiliar with the art process so part one specifically talks about the aviation

[00:15:41] will making committee that gets assembled when you're changing aviation law and something that I was actually pretty involved in for for a long time in Capitol Hill where if there's a problem in the industry

[00:15:53] there can be comments submitted to the F.A. usually through a site called regulations dot gov and if the F.A. deems it necessary they can put together at aviation rule making

[00:16:04] committee it's actually a beautiful process it brings the entire industry together the unions the airline pilots the representative of family members

[00:16:12] involved in a airline accidents all key stakeholders are brought together and they deliberate for weeks for months for years sometimes on making good policy

[00:16:22] reviewing what has been done in the past and coming up with great recommendations and they make those recommendations to the F.A. and the F.A. gets briefed by the arc and takes those recommendations into consideration for writing laws

[00:16:35] and it's actually I think it's I think it's a beautiful democratic process what's also great is usually that might follow there might be a comment period that follows the just the preliminary decision where people can review

[00:16:47] what the arc talked about and what the F.A. has moved forward with and then you can write public comments on regulation dot gov on that specific ruling and that way if you have an opinion it can be heard

[00:16:59] and those comments will be sent to the to the committee kind of making the decision so I echo the same sentiment Joe I'm that that gives me a lot of hope I didn't realize there was an arc going on for this specific case and sometimes

[00:17:10] it's open to public comment period sometimes it's not I don't know if you know if there is going to be a comment period allowed in that process or not but as of right now

[00:17:18] I don't think there is I don't know that for certain but you know what was interesting about the the arc was you know when the when the horizon event happened when the Alaskan flight happened the NTSB on December 5th announced that they were

[00:17:30] putting together a safety round table they were calling it the mental health safety summit and it was held on December 6th the exact same day on December 5th the F.A. announced they're putting together the arc right and then they said yeah we're dealing with the two

[00:17:43] and then what I thought was a little bit kind of hilarious to look at now was the NTSB then went back on their public notice on their website and said well we actually noticed this on November 30th right so it was NTSB saying December 5th F.A. saying yeah we're doing it also we're putting

[00:18:00] together the arc on December 5th and then the NTSB came around and said okay but we actually did it on the 30th so it seems like it's kind of a race for everybody to be like no we're doing it it's us it's us we're doing it that's great news

[00:18:12] that's great news great news right yeah exactly so we'll see what comes from it that's fantastic competition is good for everybody now let's you know this is all great you know maybe this

[00:18:25] arc will get together and come up with some some really groundbreaking things but you know let's be honest this kind of is in our you know as pilots we kind

[00:18:34] of have to do what's right for us yeah you know so let's talk about like mental health resources for pilots you know particularly those for those in general

[00:18:42] aviation or you know with limited financial resources like a student pilot who's listening to this now who's saying hey I really want

[00:18:48] to be a pilot but I've got some things that I need to sort out what kind of what kind of accessible mental health do they

[00:18:53] have you know and kind of speak from it from a legal standpoint as well so there's there's a lot of if you reach out through the forums

[00:19:01] everybody knows the forums here you know there's a lot of groups that have formed that are just groups of pilots kind

[00:19:08] of a lot along the lines of birds of a feather with him's that that pilots are just talking about mental health

[00:19:14] issues together right and it doesn't go under box 19 because none of them are mental or providers right they're not

[00:19:21] physician they're not technically mental health providers they're they're literally just a supportive group kind of that

[00:19:27] that brotherhood of pilots saying you know let's talk about what's going on and that has been honestly the biggest change

[00:19:35] that I have seen in the past couple years because it definitely has it's always had that that stigma of look we're

[00:19:42] not even going to talk about it amongst ourselves right we don't we don't know if the F.A. is listening right so that

[00:19:48] is change now in my opinion we do have pilots talking about it we have groups that are talking about it and that is honestly the

[00:19:55] best way for for people who at least cracked the door open to getting help as far as as formally getting help that is still a

[00:20:05] struggle and I would love to say that that is different it's not it is still a struggle right now which is why we're hoping for the

[00:20:12] ARC to come out with something the F.A. is so far behind in the review of these conditions and these cases I think right now

[00:20:19] Cammy sent a 24,000 cases behind well so even if you were yeah even if you were to come out and say hey I'm seeing a

[00:20:26] counselor I'm seeing a therapist it would your medical application would have to get the third right down to

[00:20:31] Cammy Cammy would then throw it over to the fast to the federal air surgeons office and honestly you probably wouldn't

[00:20:38] have to do that. So I'm really trying to get the results or response and like maybe five to 13 months so I really wish it

[00:20:45] was better right now but I'm very happy to see that pilots are having open conversations amongst themselves and at least

[00:20:52] supporting each other pilot to pilot you you you're sitting in that arc let's say let's pretend you get invited to

[00:20:58] participate you're at the round table what are you changing what what things are you going to do from your perspective

[00:21:05] outcomes or good outcomes. Yeah so I got asked by a lot of people that are in the arc fortunately I got I got the

[00:21:12] ear of a lot of people in the arc right now and the number one change that I put forward is we have to

[00:21:17] change 19 you hit the nail in the head you guys are right on point we need to allow pilots to be able to seek

[00:21:23] counseling right they should be able to talk to a counselor they should be able to talk to a therapist

[00:21:28] they should be able to talk to a licensed social worker now if the condition evolves right to the point where we're

[00:21:35] talking about SSRIs, barbituids, SNRIs we're talking about psychologists psychiatrists absolutely right absolutely that

[00:21:42] should be reported however I think we're going to see a big positive change in the industry if we start allowing

[00:21:49] pilots to do that square one that step one and address a problem and treat a problem before it becomes

[00:21:57] something that requires and SSRI or SNRI or requires formal treatment I think we're going to see a great

[00:22:04] shift in this industry. That's great can you can you can you speak to how the arc what what does it

[00:22:11] covers it just pilots or is it air traffic controllers is it flight attendants as a mechanics is it is it

[00:22:16] collectively as an industry you know kind of who does that cover are we just talking pilots in this aviation

[00:22:21] world making committee it's technically everything realistically pilot okay and you're going to say one more

[00:22:26] thing what were you going to add to that I said that that box 19 is literally if we just take out one set

[00:22:31] really like we're not even we're not even talking about right new rules you know what I mean we're

[00:22:35] literally taking out a sentence in the medical application and that would have a drastic

[00:22:40] drastic effect on this industry let me let me ask more ignorant question if so okay I go to see a

[00:22:46] counselor I go see a therapist and I just say box 19 be damned like okay I mean I don't

[00:22:52] really care yeah so I go and I report it now what okay so if you report it more than likely

[00:22:58] it's getting deferred which means you know obviously the Amy is not going to be able to issue

[00:23:01] the medical that day you're not walking out with a certificate and they're going to kick it down

[00:23:05] to um to cammy down at Oklahoma City you're going to get a letter back from cammy that's

[00:23:10] going to be issued pursuant to 14 CFR 67 413 6 7.4 13 and it's going to be a request for additional

[00:23:17] record and it's going to be a very general request that says a detailed clinical summary

[00:23:22] from a treating provider regarding your history of mental health anxiety whatever right

[00:23:29] whatever they come up with it's all the same um they're going to ask for a personal

[00:23:33] statement and they're going to ask for pharmaceutical records and then the airman is going

[00:23:37] to comply with that send everything down to cammy and then it's going to be another five

[00:23:42] months and then cammy is going to send another 413 letter and the 413 letter more than likely

[00:23:47] is going to say go see a hem psychologist or a hem psychiatrist and get a mental health

[00:23:51] evaluation and then the airman will do that and I'll come back to the FAA cammy will review

[00:23:56] it realize hope is over our head and then they're going to throw it to the fast and then

[00:24:00] the federal air surgeons office is going to handle it make a determination from there and then

[00:24:05] the letter back to the pilot most likely it's going to be a special issue in under 67

[00:24:10] 413 and then and then the pilots free to move forward so to speak but in that timeline

[00:24:15] we can be talking anywhere from a year to two years well wow it's incredible

[00:24:19] well that's that's such a good piece of information to know because I know that we have you

[00:24:24] know some pilots who uh that who listened to this podcast that have only been in the

[00:24:27] industry for maybe you know three five years they might even not even know you know

[00:24:31] they go through their their what do they call it the uh arrow med form right that you fill

[00:24:37] out before your medical every year or every six months and um you know they might not even

[00:24:41] know they might my go to therapy and say oh yeah that's no big deal I just went to therapy

[00:24:46] because my grandfather passed away and and all of a sudden they're in this administrative

[00:24:51] process for months on end so that's such a good piece of information know that you know

[00:24:57] you can't go and see a therapist and check the box yeah and that's what it's frustrating

[00:25:02] saying that stuff out loud you know I cringe at having to say this stuff I walk that line

[00:25:07] of being you know people need to know right pilots need to know what that process looks like

[00:25:11] so they're not surprised when it happens to them probably but at the same time I'm telling every

[00:25:16] single pilot that I talk to hey look if you have an issue right if you have a mental health

[00:25:21] struggle please please please please seek help right like with there are people in the

[00:25:25] industry that advocate for you that we can push you through and get you back fine again I always

[00:25:30] use the line it's a speed bump not a roadblock right um get yourself treated first the

[00:25:35] industry is going to be there right I know it's a long wait I know it's a long process but but

[00:25:40] get treated right before it becomes something that that is uh it is hard to reverse or hard

[00:25:45] to control yeah before we change topics Joe I just wanted to touch on uh what you said about

[00:25:50] being you know groups of pilots that are that are talking about this stuff so before we move

[00:25:54] on how do how does somebody find one of those groups that they wanted to so you know fly level

[00:25:57] three five oh airline apps that net you know all the major forums right that you would go

[00:26:02] to for that gouge and looking for jobs I promise you there a little sub sub forums and sub chats

[00:26:10] that talk about exactly this very very accessible so excellent Joe you were recently featured in

[00:26:15] an article on what happened on the American Airlines flight for for the uh unruly passengers

[00:26:22] and you said that it was tragic but it's not uncommon you know let's talk about unruly

[00:26:28] passengers I mean that not let we're kind of shifting gears from the flight deck to the back I mean

[00:26:32] should anybody fly anymore I mean this is crazy right you got really I'm just I'm just joking I'm

[00:26:36] just uh talking actually flying is so safe and you know this is such a such a great

[00:26:42] industry yeah you know but you know there's been 13 reports for every 10,000 flights of

[00:26:47] unruly passengers and that's just from you know the three during the last quarter of last year right

[00:26:52] so and you know a lot of them were mask related right we have to wear the the COVID-19 mask

[00:26:56] and things like that and people didn't like that too much and there was a lot of politicizing around

[00:27:01] that but it's talking to me about you know passenger behavior as well yeah that's since since the pandemic

[00:27:07] I mean that has been unreal I feel like that has not reversed you know prior to the pandemic

[00:27:12] maybe it's just me but prior to the pandemic I'd never heard of that I mean that was such a rare occurrence

[00:27:17] you know you may be get one video that would pop up and go viral and you think oh my gosh

[00:27:22] what's happening and then and then since the pandemic I mean during the pandemic we're getting

[00:27:26] those videos published in social media like every week it was wild and and I you know

[00:27:32] we always get the calls from people saying you know the flight attendant did this to me or the pilot

[00:27:37] did this or they went to bird or I got cut off while drinking on the plate

[00:27:42] I don't think the public understands that the moment that door closes and you're at the law

[00:27:47] the flight crew right that flight crew including the flight attendant they can do anything

[00:27:51] within reason in under the interest of aviation safety

[00:27:55] and just the audacity of the people in the back trying to over over rule the power

[00:28:02] of the authority of the flight crew was mind blowing to me and it still is mind blowing to me

[00:28:07] I wish we could go back to those olden days when you know people would dress up for their flights

[00:28:13] right it was you know it was like a big event right you're about to take an airplane

[00:28:18] and it was fantastic because it was this new invention it's amazing it's a miracle

[00:28:22] in my mind it's still a miracle it's so magical and I don't understand where the respect

[00:28:27] went for it so frustrating well Joe I want to switch gears back to substance

[00:28:33] because we talked about therapy and the fact that pilots you know because it's

[00:28:38] it's legal oftentimes we'll just start drinking and you know one thing leads

[00:28:43] to another you're exceptionally knowledgeable on the hymns program I want to get into

[00:28:47] that and the way that I'm going to do it is by asking a question that I think a lot

[00:28:51] of pilots would benefit from knowing the answer to you is what happens if I get pulled

[00:28:55] over and I think I'm on the limit or I know I'm on the limit over the limit

[00:29:00] and what do I do you know there's a lot of rumors that you should say don't

[00:29:04] blow and have them take you to the station yeah that's a great question so there's

[00:29:09] a couple of ways to attack that there's a legal side of the house and then

[00:29:12] there's the medical side of the house and that's the most frustrating part of

[00:29:16] certificate defense a lot of what we do is we're crafting federal

[00:29:20] air surgeon appeals we're crafting for 13 submissions and we're crafting

[00:29:24] them for doctors not for attorneys right so very very persuasive writing

[00:29:30] and constantly describing and explaining the regulations and policies

[00:29:34] and guidelines to these FAA doctors so that's a big question that we get all the

[00:29:38] time is what do I do am I allowed to refuse so if you look at 14 CFR 67 307.307

[00:29:44] which is the exact same language as 67.207 which is the exact same

[00:29:48] language as 67-107.107 that's for a first second and third class

[00:29:54] medicals you'll see in there if we look at first class 67.107B has to do with

[00:29:59] substance abuse and substance abuse says that it is definable if you

[00:30:04] refuse a DOT test so I have pilots all the time say well you can't

[00:30:10] you can't refuse a roadside because that's a DOT test right as a pilot

[00:30:14] we always have to blow you always have to accept a test the legal argument

[00:30:18] that is no it's not true at all if we have a state cop is that state cop really

[00:30:23] providing a DOT test right a highway patrol if they pull you over are they

[00:30:27] providing a DOT test they have the authority to issue a DOT test really

[00:30:31] really with that DOT test if you look at the legislative history of 67107B

[00:30:35] that DOT test is in reference to a 119 drug and alcohol test right that that

[00:30:41] 135 drivers have to take the 121 drivers have to take right that's really what

[00:30:45] it's in reference to so if an airline pilot is walking off last flight of

[00:30:50] the day and you know on the jet bridge they get the hey you're in the drug and

[00:30:54] alcohol program we need to get you a quick test here if an airline pilot were

[00:30:58] to refuse at that point that would be immediately deemed substance abuse under

[00:31:02] 67107B now let's look at it from the doctor's perspective down in

[00:31:06] Kami they're going to say anytime a pilot refuses any test it's because

[00:31:11] they're an alcoholic so I will say it is easier to defend pilots who have

[00:31:16] who have complied with the request and who have loan or given blood it's

[00:31:21] easier to defend them than it is somebody who has refused interest because

[00:31:27] we're already walking back an assumption that that pilot is an alcoholic

[00:31:32] otherwise there's no reason to pilot whatever refuse interesting so even if

[00:31:35] you know even if you get pulled over and you know that you're over just comply

[00:31:40] take the test and get the DUI and then work on it later yeah and then

[00:31:46] then there's the aspect of when do you take the test right you take the test

[00:31:49] on the side of the road is it a refusal then if you say to him hey I'd

[00:31:53] love to take the test I'm not refusing but I'd like to take it back at the

[00:31:56] station you know that provides a little bit of time to metabolize a lot of

[00:32:00] agencies will acquiesce on that and they'll be very accommodating of that

[00:32:04] request there are some agencies that say no if you're not doing it right now

[00:32:07] it's a refusal you know that's kind of a game time call right in that mix

[00:32:11] but obviously anytime that you can allow your body to metabolize that's

[00:32:15] going to be more beneficial for your BAC result so it's good advice

[00:32:18] sometimes sometimes I have dealt with pilots of course that are on the

[00:32:25] rise on BAC in the time delay does not does not benefit them all right so that's

[00:32:31] good to know all right so if you if you end up with a DUI what's the first I

[00:32:36] mean so we all have hotline number for Alpa where you can you can call the

[00:32:41] union right away I'm sure APA and Swapa have have similar hotlines should everyone

[00:32:46] have you know your number on speed dial who should they be calling if this if

[00:32:50] this happens yes two different avenues so you have the F.A. medical side of

[00:32:55] the house and then you have the SAP right the SAP program for the employer

[00:32:59] please know those are not the same so I've seen cases where pilots have

[00:33:04] fought to get their medical back only to find out that they are not

[00:33:07] higherable because they never went through a SAP and never got a SAP clearance

[00:33:10] to come back to work so please know that there's SAP as well as the medical

[00:33:14] side of the house I don't do anything with SAP I handle the medical side of the

[00:33:17] house it is important it is helpful to get an aviation attorney on board

[00:33:22] immediately to start working with a criminal attorney because there are times

[00:33:26] that a criminal attorney will will do things to try and best influence the

[00:33:31] criminal case at the but at the same time that action negatively impacts

[00:33:35] the medical case down the road for me so it is always helpful how so so the

[00:33:40] biggest one that we see is evaluation they'll go and do like a sassy a

[00:33:45] substance abuse evaluation that is performed by a licensed clinical

[00:33:50] social worker and a lot of times especially on the sassy the sassy will say

[00:33:54] it doesn't have an option for no alcohol condition right so the lowest

[00:33:59] thing on the list is substance use disorder mild so the F.A. will take that

[00:34:03] and be like alcoholic right and so but you know in the criminal world that

[00:34:08] is a very good result right in a criminal world the criminal attorney could

[00:34:11] say look substance use disorder mild right and that may that may you know help

[00:34:16] them on the on the probation or on the resolution of the case or you know the

[00:34:20] general disposition of the case but in my world I'm like oh my gosh now I

[00:34:25] got to deal with this right and I got to walk this back so it's it's nice when

[00:34:29] we get to work with a criminal attorney and we get to say no please don't do

[00:34:32] that there are also times when the you know my idea of a good case is

[00:34:38] better than a criminal's a criminal attorney's idea of a good case so if I

[00:34:42] have an airman that is blowing like a 0.24 something like that it benefits

[00:34:49] my world if you know the cop opens the door to the truck and beer cans fall

[00:34:53] out in the pilot gets out and tries to punch a cop right that's that's not

[00:34:58] more beneficial in my world than the aviation world and I'm sure a criminal

[00:35:02] attorney listening to this is probably cringing on oh my god I don't want that

[00:35:06] case okay so it's it's definitely it's nice when we get to work together with

[00:35:11] each other and kind of find a middle ground so makes a lot of sense so someone

[00:35:16] ends up in hymns can you tell us a little bit for for people who aren't very

[00:35:20] familiar with it and I know a lot of people might think you know that that's for

[00:35:23] somebody else it's not for me but I think there's a good reason for everyone to be

[00:35:27] generally familiar with the program what it looks like and benefits

[00:35:31] of drawbacks if there are any benefits yeah hymns is a tragedy I'm sorry I'm

[00:35:37] gonna be very blunt with this so please excuse my candor with hymns again I as

[00:35:42] mentioned earlier I started my career by putting pilots into the hymns

[00:35:45] program so the hymns program is a program that was developed in the 70s by Alpa

[00:35:50] and it was developed to basically treat pilots that were dealing with alcohol

[00:35:55] issues right so back in those days it was 30 days of rehab 30 days of outpatient

[00:35:59] monitoring and then 30 days of just kind of general follow up and then you were

[00:36:03] back in the cockpit 90 days super successful program it was only available to

[00:36:07] 121 drivers so when I started my career representing 91 drivers what I would do

[00:36:12] is I would basically make a hymns program for a general 91 driver who maybe

[00:36:17] had 2 DUIs and I would tell the FAA look under 6741 under the special

[00:36:22] issuance these are your criteria I'm basically mimicking the 121 hymns

[00:36:27] program can you let this airman still fly rather than just denying the medical

[00:36:32] and saying nope no such luck and it was very successful back then it was got to pick

[00:36:37] our own doctors we got to work a good program it was very clinically and

[00:36:41] medically focused over the years I have watched the deterioration of the

[00:36:46] program and the program has deteriorated away from a clinically based program

[00:36:49] to one of control and compliance it is now available to everybody it's the gold

[00:36:53] standard except the only people that get paid for are 121 drivers 91 and 135

[00:36:58] drivers still have to pay for their own hymns program they're expected to go

[00:37:01] through it but they have to pay for it year number one is like anywhere from

[00:37:05] 35 to $60,000 out of pocket the program is it's very now it's very obtuse

[00:37:11] it's it's very objective you know there are there are sec criteria like for example

[00:37:16] an airline pilot a 121 driver who gets 4 DUIs in the last one there's a loaded

[00:37:21] gun in the car right like and touches a gun charge at it too that pilot will

[00:37:26] get the exact same hymns program as somebody who's had a DUI 10 years ago

[00:37:30] there is no subjectivity there's no case by case evaluation there's no clinical

[00:37:34] evaluation anymore and that's very frustrating that just got highlighted I'm

[00:37:38] going to throw this out there so it just doesn't sound like I'm on an angry

[00:37:41] rampage so this last year 2023 was the 50 anniversary the 50th anniversary

[00:37:48] of the hymns program and Congress said to the FAA how's it going we've been paying

[00:37:53] for this program for 50 years do you have any data do you have any reports

[00:37:58] any studies to say that we've been paying for a good thing it's been improving

[00:38:01] the industry and the FAA said no we don't keep data we don't keep any studies on

[00:38:06] it and Congress said well you better find some because when your reauthorization

[00:38:11] comes around we're going to remember that you don't have any and essentially

[00:38:14] stop funding the hymns program so the FAA went out and paid the National Academy

[00:38:18] of Sciences back in April of 23 paid him a million dollars to run a third party

[00:38:23] independent review of the hymns program it got published September 8th last year

[00:38:27] and it was 560 some pages of greatness just dragging the program through the mud

[00:38:34] everything that I just said no objective everything was objective no subjective

[00:38:38] review no case by case evaluation using antiquated medical standards no real

[00:38:45] error medical input into the hymns program and it is a program that study the

[00:38:50] NAS study is publicly available and the FAA is doing a great job of sweeping

[00:38:55] that thing under the rug because not a lot of pilots note exists so definitely

[00:38:59] go Google that one that's a good read very interesting well and you specialize

[00:39:04] on getting people out of the hymns program right so how does how do you do that

[00:39:09] and if someone's in the program they want to try to get out what what chances

[00:39:14] do they have of potentially getting out of it so back in the day hymns was 30 days

[00:39:20] then hymns got pushed to three years and then hymns got pushed to five years

[00:39:25] so you would do five years of SI monitoring I wish I was making this up but April

[00:39:30] 1 of covid April Fool's Day 2020 the FAA published a policy that said hymns is

[00:39:37] now lifetime and then very quickly after they published that you know Alpa lost

[00:39:42] their mind the FAA walked it back into the step down plan right the step down

[00:39:46] program says that you have seven years transitioning through different levels

[00:39:50] of the hymns program to eventually year seven you're just saying a hymns

[00:39:53] AME and you're monitoring through the step down plan has not gone well

[00:39:59] it used to be up to cammy dr. dumpstorf was the one who would approve a step

[00:40:03] down he got overwhelmed there were way too many step down requests coming in

[00:40:07] and he basically threw his hands and said we're not doing that anymore

[00:40:11] an AME can now do a step down without asking cammy for approval however an AME

[00:40:17] cannot step down an airman early an AME has to step down according to the

[00:40:22] step down plan doing all the year segments all the way through seven years

[00:40:27] so right now the only way to really press on the hymns program is by you

[00:40:33] know federal air surgeon appeals followed by a congressional inquiry most

[00:40:38] likely through a senator and then of course we have the nuclear option of

[00:40:42] pursuing the FAA under their policies being arbitrary and capricious

[00:40:47] being objective and not having any case by case evaluation to get an

[00:40:51] airman out of that program wow have you ever had success with in suing

[00:40:55] the FAA so the arbitrary and capricious program or a lawsuit is a little

[00:40:59] unfortunate in the fact that a success means it gets kicked back to the FAA

[00:41:03] and basically the court of appeals of district Columbia says hey FAA

[00:41:08] what you did was arbitrary and capricious try again wow okay and then the FAA

[00:41:12] just gets to do it again interesting so it's a very very frustrating

[00:41:16] program and I am very happy that on the reauthorization that went through the house

[00:41:21] I think on September 21st of last year now go into the Senate there is a

[00:41:26] section in there that the FAA has to revisit and modernize the hymns

[00:41:31] program understood which would probably end up in an arc right an aviation

[00:41:35] program or making committee potentially if it gets if it gets real yeah

[00:41:38] yeah it says that it that within 180 days of the reauthorization going through

[00:41:42] that they have to set up an arc and they have to revisit all the policies

[00:41:46] and guidelines concerning it well it sounds like positive progress being made

[00:41:50] Ryan I know you're probably trying to jump in here but staying on the

[00:41:53] thread of actionable advice for pilots can we at least touch on you know cardio

[00:41:59] issues or something like that where where if a pilot goes in for their

[00:42:03] medical and it gets denied what are they what do they do what should they

[00:42:06] do can we touch on that yeah so yeah cardio issues are a pain the FAA

[00:42:11] doesn't have a cardiologist in house so the FAA has to do what's called the cardiac

[00:42:15] panel and they basically reach out to two doctors nationwide and say hey

[00:42:19] please review this stack of applications it is important to if you get

[00:42:24] deferred for cardio issues it's important to reach out to anybody to advocate

[00:42:28] for you because it's very easy to get in this back and forth with the FAA

[00:42:33] where they're requesting you know now they're requesting a bruise vertical

[00:42:36] stress test now they're requesting a wholeter 24 hour monitor now they're

[00:42:39] requesting an angio now they're requesting imagery from that angel you know

[00:42:42] it's very easy to get 413 letter to death so it's very helpful right at the

[00:42:46] start to get somebody to advocate for you and say hey look these are all the

[00:42:49] tests that you need to do I'm so sorry that you need to do them but these are

[00:42:52] all the tests you need to do so that you can you can go through that cardiac

[00:42:56] panel a little bit more smoothly and what's frustrating is we've been finding

[00:43:00] nationwide that there's a lot of cardiologists that are like you know I'm not

[00:43:03] going to do that order I'm not putting in that order like why would you have

[00:43:06] to do a nuclear stress test for that so it's it's helpful to be in contact with

[00:43:10] cardiologists that are willing to write those tests not because they're clinically

[00:43:14] or medically necessary but because they're regulatory or administratively

[00:43:17] necessary so yeah that that process is frustrating the fact that the FAA is

[00:43:22] not is not prepared to handle those cases and really has never been prepared

[00:43:26] to handle those cases. It's great. Ryan I'm gonna switch gears one more time

[00:43:31] real quick let's talk about those that are aspiring to get an aviation

[00:43:34] law talk about your business a little bit talk about how you make money some

[00:43:38] of the ups and downs that you have you know kind of you know let's talk about

[00:43:41] that side of things. Sure so three big ways you know back when I went

[00:43:45] to law school there was one law school in the country that provided any

[00:43:49] education surrounding aviation and it was SMU and SMU had a one semester

[00:43:54] course on aviation transactions so nowadays though there are so many

[00:43:59] schools that that focus on aviation and the big one is space law now right

[00:44:04] there's a bunch of schools that have space law theory classes that's below

[00:44:07] enough but but practically right now the money makers within the industry

[00:44:11] are either doing transactions you're doing certificate defense or you're

[00:44:15] doing crash litigation so here at Ramos we do we have an entire certificate

[00:44:19] defense division and we represent pilots from Puerto Rico to Alaska having

[00:44:23] to do with medical issues and FAA enforcement issues and then we also have

[00:44:27] a litigation team and the litigation team focus on crashes and we do that

[00:44:32] all over the world we have clients all over the world having to do with that

[00:44:35] type of space. We don't at the moment we don't do a lot in transactions

[00:44:39] it's just you know it's not the speed that I like right going through just a big

[00:44:44] stack of paperwork and then drafting another big stack of paperwork it's not

[00:44:48] super fun for me but those are the two business focuses that we have within

[00:44:52] the Ramos Aviation division itself so kind of two different pillars.

[00:44:56] That's interesting and is there any opportunity for airline pilots to maybe get a

[00:45:01] side gig or do some consulting with you guys you know that's something that I did

[00:45:05] for many many years is that was an aviation consultant and kind of did some

[00:45:08] contract work that indirectly for the FAA talked to me about that those

[00:45:12] opportunities. Yeah 100% so we do have law clerks you know people that are in

[00:45:16] law school right now that are looking for a real world experience within the

[00:45:20] industry. We certainly take loss lost students internships externships all

[00:45:23] that good stuff go figure a lot of them are airline pilots they're part 121

[00:45:27] pilots who are looking for that that side hustle right that side gig and a lot

[00:45:31] of them go to law school at night and then and then look to kind of get into this

[00:45:35] industry. We also have a lot of experts you know a lot of what we do especially

[00:45:38] in the crash litigation world as we all know the NTSB loves the phrase pilot

[00:45:42] air right control flight into terrain a lot of a lot of stuff surrounding just

[00:45:47] pure piloting right and so oftentimes we'll reach out to experts within the

[00:45:52] industry or those you know that have that real world experience maybe on that

[00:45:56] aircraft type or or in that in that type of flying and we'll do exactly what

[00:46:00] you're talking about will do will hire them for consulting and guidance as we work

[00:46:04] through a case you know where should we be looking where are the the bodies

[00:46:08] hidden type situation right same thing with plenty enough human factors

[00:46:12] right you know pilots are trained a lot in human factors CRM risk analysis all

[00:46:17] that we use a lot of contractors in that space as well so yeah it's always

[00:46:22] nice to see people from the industry kind of cross back and forth here within the

[00:46:26] legal spectrum of the industry. Yeah I thought that was so interesting you know when

[00:46:30] I wanted to get an aviation it was like be a pilot right and you go to training

[00:46:34] all that and you get to the airlines and then you're like holy cow like there's

[00:46:38] actually like a ton that you can do outside of just flying an airplane

[00:46:42] that's contributory to aviation and you're you can be around aviation without

[00:46:46] actually you know flying an airplane and I thought those kinds of jobs you know

[00:46:50] just for for those thinking about getting into a career in aviation or already in

[00:46:54] into aviation and want to like you said do that little moonlight which the

[00:46:58] do there's there's a lot in you know the skills and the experience and the

[00:47:02] knowledge that you attain as an airline pilot can be applicable to a lot of

[00:47:06] scenarios and really be helpful to the industry so pretty neat Joe I want to end

[00:47:10] on a light note out of all the guests we've had nobody's had better hair than me

[00:47:14] we gotta have laugh after all that right

[00:47:20] and that's and that's a call to go check us out on YouTube yeah exactly

[00:47:26] cool that our YouTube channel I mean we gotta hear about the hair again

[00:47:30] the the high-style it in all and all that so now I'm just joking

[00:47:34] yeah it comes up all the time you'd be surprised from like

[00:47:38] reddit a maze and stuff it's like the number one comment is what's that product

[00:47:42] so yeah my hair stylist loves it don't at we send her

[00:47:46] all those comments that's hilarious you should like an outtake real of like

[00:47:50] everybody saying it on all your on all your things

[00:47:54] Joe yeah you know I want to be respectful of your time really appreciate coming on the show

[00:47:58] for those pilots that are seeking advice or consultation from your firm

[00:48:04] how do folks get in touch with you or how do they stay in touch or how do they follow you

[00:48:08] yes we're on every platform Ramos Ramos Law Aviation and just Ramos Laws on every

[00:48:13] platform Facebook Instagram I think there's even a TikTok linked in

[00:48:18] the only social media I have is linked in and I'll be very honest with you I use it to troll the FAO

[00:48:22] so feel free to follow me on LinkedIn there's always fun comments under the FAA's

[00:48:28] air medical post is that under Joseph Joseph Luruso?

[00:48:32] yep it's under Joseph Luruso it's at least the laugh I don't know who does their social media

[00:48:38] but some of the stuff that they post is just like

[00:48:40] yeah what are you guys thinking

[00:48:42] well now I'm gonna check it out for sure

[00:48:47] Joe thank you so much for coming on and thanks for listening

[00:48:50] for tuning in thank you guys so much pleasure on the next one