#86 - Mapping the Skies: The Tech Behind Real-Time Flight Tracking with Ian Petchenik

[00:00:00] Welcome back to Passive Income Pilots, everyone, Tait Duryea with Ryan Gibson. How you doing?

[00:00:06] Good. If you've ever looked to the sky and wondered what airplane is that and where is it going? I think we've all nerded out on this once or twice.

[00:00:15] It's a rabbit hole that I've gone down a few times.

[00:00:17] I've gotten my son Rowan involved and I actually pull up my app on my phone and I, and we look at where the airplanes are and we talk about where they are going or where they're going to. And so it's, it's nerdy, it's fun. But today,

[00:00:29] we get to bring on the guy that's behind all of that data and you getting it. So we're gonna talk about aviation nerd stuff today. So if you're listening and you're hoping for some financial wisdom, normally this show, that's what we talk about. We normally talk about financial tactics and strategy that's applicable. We talk about passive income things, just a forewarning so you're not disappointed as you listen to this episode. This is an aviation nerd episode. So if you're an airline pilot or a general aviator, we're going to unveil a lot of things that you probably

[00:00:59] don't know about with these flight tracking apps and some really cool things that you can actually get in your flight deck or in your hometown and talk about how that's going to help track airplanes and things like that. So a lot of really interesting stuff in here.

[00:01:12] Yeah. So we have Ian Pechenik. He is the director of communications at Flightradar24. Been with the company over nine years and everybody has this app on their phone. So I don't need to tell you what it is, but it is the largest ADS-B network in the world, over 41,000 connected receivers all over the world, over 200,000 flights being tracked a day, over 4 million users a day. And it's the number one app on the app store in over 130 countries. Can you believe that?

[00:01:39] That's crazy. Yeah. So this is an app that allows you to track airplanes, where they're going, where they're coming through, how fast, what heading, what tail number, where they've originated from. So if you're not into aviation, you know, this is a cool app to download and maybe download that while you're listening to the episode.

[00:01:53] Yeah. And you look up in the sky, wonder where that airplane's going. You can tell. And it turns out there's a big business behind it too with the data aggregation. So without further ado, let's get into the show.

[00:02:05] Welcome to Passive Income Pilots, where pilots upgrade their money. This is the definitive source for personal finance and investment tactics for aviators. We interview world-renowned experts and share these lessons with the blind community. So if you're ready for practical knowledge and insights, let's roll.

[00:02:25] Ian, I'm really excited to talk to you today. It's an app that we all use. I don't think you can point to a pilot that doesn't have this app on their phone. Flightradar24. I hope not. I hope you can't point to a pilot who doesn't have it.

[00:02:37] And Ian, for those people who listen who aren't pilots, can you just kind of, what is your app and what does it provide people with?

[00:02:42] Sure. So Flightradar24 is a global flight tracking service that takes the ADS-B messages coming out of all of the aircraft, collects them in ground receivers all around the world and satellite-based receivers, puts all that together with schedule information, database information that we maintain, and turns it into a live moving map of air traffic all around the world.

[00:03:04] That's really cool. And for those who don't know what ADS-B is, it's basically a fancy way of saying a signal that comes off the aircraft is shit to tell you where it is.

[00:03:12] Ryan and I definitely came up in an era where the tattle box wasn't a thing and you could fly at five feet over the water and nobody would know that we're taking the rental airplane for a joyride. Those days are over.

[00:03:26] Yeah. Or the little tour around Niagara Falls when we're leaving Buffalo. Yeah, that doesn't really work anymore.

[00:03:32] Ian, who is your biggest user? Like, who would this app be good for? Is it mostly just pilots or is this a passenger heavy use too?

[00:03:38] So it's a combination app because what you use it for, the information's the same, but what you use it for is different across so many interests.

[00:03:47] So we have a huge base of people who just love aviation, who are just fans of airplanes, whether that's plane spotters or folks who are just tracking aircraft from the comfort of their own home.

[00:04:02] And then that goes into all of the professionals that use it, either in a professional capacity as part of their job or just because they like having the app.

[00:04:12] And so if we're talking about pilots, that could be, okay, where's the inbound coming from?

[00:04:17] So it's kind of the number one use case for pilots.

[00:04:21] Though we do have pilots who use it when operating the aircraft.

[00:04:24] My favorite use case, because I like to hate on Newark as much as possible, is that there are a lot of non-United pilots who, when using Newark, need to use Flight Raider 24 before taxi.

[00:04:39] Because they need to know what's around them and you can't see anything in Newark.

[00:04:43] So it lends them an extra level of situational awareness before they're pushing your aircraft.

[00:04:49] I know I use it when I'm picking somebody up at the airport.

[00:04:53] You know, Google says the flight's scheduled to land or arrive at X time.

[00:04:58] You know, it's always ambiguous whether that means gate arrival or landing.

[00:05:01] So I use Flight Raider 24 and when they're descending out of about 10,000 feet, I know that that's time to leave for the airport.

[00:05:08] You know, you kind of figure that out and you're like, hey, exactly.

[00:05:10] Yeah, you know when it's time to go.

[00:05:12] Exactly.

[00:05:13] So what has changed?

[00:05:14] I mean, because ADS-B is a technology that I believe had a mandate to roll out in 2020, which basically increased the amount of information coming off airplanes.

[00:05:25] How did that benefit your app?

[00:05:27] Or I guess when did your app start?

[00:05:28] You know, kind of give us the history there.

[00:05:30] Yeah.

[00:05:31] So the history of Flight Raider 24 is a fascinating one because it's entirely accidental.

[00:05:35] We're a Swedish-based company and our co-founders were in Stockholm working on a different company called Fliegressor, which is a price comparison website.

[00:05:47] So think Kayak, Expedia.

[00:05:49] You type in where you want to go and we'll sell you some tickets to wherever you want to go.

[00:05:54] And they were looking for a way to bring traffic to that site.

[00:05:58] So they said, okay, this ADS-B thing is kind of new.

[00:06:01] This is 2005, 2006.

[00:06:04] And this is interesting.

[00:06:05] You know, we can add some receivers in the Stockholm area.

[00:06:09] We'll show Stockholm-based traffic.

[00:06:11] And then we can put that as a map on the website and people will come and visit it.

[00:06:17] A few years go by and they've built out that receiver network, put receivers on the office, on their homes, a few more around Stockholm area.

[00:06:25] And Google starts to think that, oh, you're a flight tracking site.

[00:06:29] People like tracking airplanes.

[00:06:31] That's where they're going on the site.

[00:06:33] And so they thought, well, maybe this is something that we can turn into a real business.

[00:06:37] So 2007, Flight Raider 24 gets spun off into its own business.

[00:06:41] And we start expanding, expanding, expanding the receiver network so that we can track more aircraft.

[00:06:46] And then in about 2009 is when we opened up the receiver network to anyone who wants to share data with us.

[00:06:54] So you can build your own receiver and then send that ADS-B data that you're collecting to our service.

[00:07:01] It'll be shown on the Flight Raider 24 map.

[00:07:03] And that's when things really started to expand.

[00:07:06] And just you start seeing aircraft all over the world even more, even more, even more after that.

[00:07:11] I think it's so fascinating that you can see airplanes on the ground now and you can see like the lineup for takeoff.

[00:07:18] So when you're sitting on a plane, you pull up this app, you can actually see like when the pilot gets on, they say, hey, we're number 35 for departure.

[00:07:27] You can literally go to the app.

[00:07:28] You can zoom into the taxiway and you check their work.

[00:07:30] You can count the airplanes.

[00:07:32] And, you know, I know that at the airlines, we've started to get really good about fuel planning and realities of like being able to see the line.

[00:07:40] You know, we used to back in the day, we'd like look out the window and be like, hey, what's the line like out there?

[00:07:44] Or we'd call ground or call a ramp or something and ask for an update.

[00:07:48] And it would all change by the time we got out there anyway.

[00:07:50] But now we have it on our iPad and our flight tech.

[00:07:53] So I think it's just a fascinating technology.

[00:07:55] And, you know, it's probably going to save fuel.

[00:07:57] It's going to save.

[00:07:57] It's going to help better decision making, probably save return to gate, you know, and ADS-B has really been a neat feature in aviation that has really benefited us all.

[00:08:07] Yeah, I mean, the great thing here is that we've barely scratched the surface on what this data can do and what the format can really do to improve efficiency across the industry.

[00:08:20] I mean, things like continuous descent and all the RMP approaches and things like that that are enabled by this.

[00:08:28] But also free route trajectories.

[00:08:31] So we don't need ground-based navigation anymore.

[00:08:34] Although that now that we're dealing with GPS, you know, jamming and spoofing, that brings us back to, OK, maybe we do.

[00:08:41] But in normal circumstances, I mean, these things can can generally be taken out of the equation.

[00:08:47] And so you end up with a much more efficient routing whenever you can get one.

[00:08:52] We were talking a few weeks ago with folks over in American who have been using ADS-B in.

[00:08:59] So basically, ADS-B messages being sent from aircraft to aircraft.

[00:09:03] And so they can start flying closer in together.

[00:09:06] They know exactly where their aircraft is, you know, behind it, in front of it.

[00:09:10] And you end up with the controller saying, OK, everybody get in spacing behind this lead aircraft.

[00:09:17] And all of a sudden, you've saved, you know, as we all know, every little bit of fuel saved, you know, means a lot.

[00:09:23] So it's really fascinating to see what is starting to happen in the airspace.

[00:09:28] Really cool.

[00:09:29] I know what strikes me when I zoom out and look at the entire world is, wow, we're burning a lot of jet fuel.

[00:09:36] You know what you burn on a Transcon and a 777, you know, and you're like, wow, you extrapolate that out over all these airplanes.

[00:09:43] We either need to invest in oil and gas or get to sustainable aviation fuel quick.

[00:09:48] Yeah.

[00:09:49] I mean, and then beyond that, I mean, you know, it's the investments in SAF and everything is just, OK, then what's next?

[00:09:58] Right.

[00:09:58] I mean, because sustainable aviation fuels, sustainable-ish, not really.

[00:10:03] I mean, we need something, whatever's next.

[00:10:06] And if you're talking about investing, I mean, that's the exciting thing.

[00:10:09] I think it might benefit our listeners.

[00:10:11] And I know this will be a little bit repetitive for people that know this, but what is ADS-B in?

[00:10:18] What is ADS-B out?

[00:10:20] What does it do?

[00:10:22] No, this is a good question because I feel like a lot of airline pilots, it's like, it's too late to ask.

[00:10:26] You know, you're just going to look dumb.

[00:10:28] It's been too long.

[00:10:29] I can't ask that anymore.

[00:10:30] I'm supposed to know.

[00:10:32] Right, right.

[00:10:32] Well, hey, I'm getting vulnerable here.

[00:10:35] I think I know the answer, but we're going to let the expert answer that question.

[00:10:38] So let's back up.

[00:10:40] And what does ADS-B stand for?

[00:10:42] So it's Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast.

[00:10:46] So automatic means pilots don't need to do anything.

[00:10:49] It happens automatically.

[00:10:51] Dependent means it's dependent on the ability to receive a position signal

[00:10:55] from a global positioning.

[00:10:58] So either GPS or, you know, if you're a Russian aircraft, GLONASS.

[00:11:02] If you're in Europe, Galileo.

[00:11:04] If you're in Japan, it's the Japanese one whose name I forget.

[00:11:08] But any position, any verified position information.

[00:11:11] So surveillance, you know where the aircraft is.

[00:11:14] That one, I always struggle to like how to explain that one because it's just

[00:11:17] knowing the thing, surveilling the thing.

[00:11:20] You don't want everyone to describe a word with the word, but that's the best one I've got.

[00:11:24] I think everybody knows that an airplane has a transponder and a radar, you know, I guess

[00:11:28] like a radar sweep from like World War II era is like circulating around and it's giving

[00:11:34] a reading of aircraft in the sky, like hitting the metal and bouncing back.

[00:11:39] I'm probably explaining this, probably goofing this up, but transponders on an airplane have

[00:11:43] been around forever.

[00:11:43] So like ADS-B is kind of layering on to that, right?

[00:11:48] And giving more enhanced information that's automatically coming off the airplane.

[00:11:53] I mean, is that kind of a way to explain it to a layman?

[00:11:56] Yeah, it upgrades the MODAS transponder.

[00:11:58] So the older transponder that was sending some information, ADS-B gives so much more information

[00:12:05] encoded in each message.

[00:12:07] So you get things like position, altitude, heading, you know, you can get autopilot information.

[00:12:14] So what is the mode control panel setting?

[00:12:16] You know, what is the intended heading of the aircraft versus the track of the aircraft?

[00:12:21] You know, barometric altitudes, barometric rate of change, GPS altitude.

[00:12:26] There's, you know, layers and layers and layers of data that we get off of the aircraft.

[00:12:31] So it's a way of the aircraft at its very basic level telling you where it is, where it's going

[00:12:38] and how fast it's going to get there.

[00:12:39] But it's, you know, it's an expanding layer of information.

[00:12:43] Where does that information get transmitted to?

[00:12:46] Because, you know, you can see airplanes over the Pacific, the Atlantic, where you're way

[00:12:51] outside of radar coverage.

[00:12:52] Is it being transmitted to GPS satellites?

[00:12:55] No.

[00:12:56] So, so the, there's two, there's two transponder antennas on the aircraft.

[00:13:01] One's on top of the aircraft.

[00:13:02] One's on the bottom.

[00:13:03] The bottom one's always sending stuff down to the ground.

[00:13:06] So that's where we've got roughly 41,000 terrestrial receivers now.

[00:13:12] I was reading that on your website at 41,000 receivers.

[00:13:15] And, and so that, that picks up on the ground.

[00:13:18] And then there's also satellites that are, so there's, there's ADS-B that we talk about

[00:13:23] all the time.

[00:13:23] And then there's also ADS-C, which is the same thing, but it's a little bit more complicated.

[00:13:30] That's what's being used over the oceanic tracks.

[00:13:32] So if, if you're talking about flying over the Pacific, you're going to generally see ADS-C

[00:13:38] and, and that data is going up to satellites and then relayed down to ground stations.

[00:13:43] Then there's also ADS-B receivers that have been placed on satellites.

[00:13:47] Um, so that's folks like, uh, Arion with their global constellation or, uh, some of the companies

[00:13:53] that we work with that have low earth orbit satellites, either CubeSats or a little bit

[00:13:58] larger that are, that are working in constellation to, to send that data back down.

[00:14:04] Understood.

[00:14:05] Wow.

[00:14:05] Okay.

[00:14:05] See, I didn't know that.

[00:14:06] Now let's talk about in and out.

[00:14:08] Do we talk, do we cover that adequately?

[00:14:09] No, we, we didn't get that far.

[00:14:12] So, so when we talk about ADS-B norm, whenever anyone says ADS-B, we're usually talking about

[00:14:17] ADS-B out.

[00:14:18] That's the aircraft sending information down to the ground and, or, or up into the sky

[00:14:24] and a receiver picking it up and doing something with that.

[00:14:27] Whether it's air traffic control, then using that to guide the aircraft or us using it to,

[00:14:32] to create the site and, and run the app.

[00:14:35] That that's ADS-B out.

[00:14:37] ADS-B in is an aircraft's ability to take that ADS-B out message and do something with

[00:14:43] it.

[00:14:43] So that provides them with a wealth of information about what's going on around them.

[00:14:48] So instead of, you know, getting position reports from pilots and saying, okay, we're,

[00:14:53] you know, we flew, uh, through such and such here were the conditions and then having to

[00:14:59] time it.

[00:15:00] Okay.

[00:15:00] I, I'm, I think I'm 10 minutes behind this aircraft or something like that.

[00:15:04] I can say, no, I see them.

[00:15:06] This is their speed.

[00:15:07] This is my speed.

[00:15:09] I'm either going to overtake them.

[00:15:10] Uh, that might not be a good thing because air traffic control wants me to stay behind

[00:15:14] that aircraft or, uh, I'm going too slow and we're getting further, further apart.

[00:15:18] And air traffic control told me to stay, uh, five miles in trail from that particular

[00:15:22] aircraft.

[00:15:22] Uh, so I need to, to increase my speed to, to match that.

[00:15:26] And so that can feed either into the pilot's information and then they can do something about

[00:15:30] it or it can be done through the autopilot and it's all kind of, you know, managed with

[00:15:36] the pilot monitoring that information.

[00:15:38] But the data itself is coming from another aircraft first.

[00:15:41] That's super cool.

[00:15:42] Yeah.

[00:15:43] We have ADSC on our air buses and it's great.

[00:15:46] I mean, you can see all your traffic.

[00:15:48] You see their call sign, the ground speed.

[00:15:50] And so coming in for approach, you know, you can hard tune the aircraft in front of you

[00:15:55] and monitor the ground speed.

[00:15:56] They start slowing.

[00:15:57] You can slow with them.

[00:15:58] So ATC doesn't have to jump in and tell you to slow down.

[00:16:01] Yeah, exactly.

[00:16:02] It, it adds that it adds efficiency because you can space aircraft more closely together,

[00:16:07] but it also adds safety because the aircraft are talking to each other even more now than,

[00:16:12] than they were before.

[00:16:13] So it's really cool to see when, when it's all working like that.

[00:16:16] It's amazing what it does to general aviation because I fly in the Pacific Northwest and

[00:16:20] small planes.

[00:16:21] I got seaplanes below me.

[00:16:23] I've got airliners above me.

[00:16:24] I've got GA all over the place and I got mountains and water and everything's compressed.

[00:16:30] So having that information now is like seeing a void.

[00:16:34] I mean, it's just made it so much more situational aware.

[00:16:36] So very much appreciate that.

[00:16:38] Ian, I'd like to switch gears a little bit.

[00:16:40] Sure.

[00:16:41] And talk about how flight radar 24 makes money.

[00:16:44] Sure.

[00:16:44] Yeah.

[00:16:44] Like who's your biggest revenue source?

[00:16:46] And you don't have to name them by name if you, if you don't want to divulge that information,

[00:16:49] but who, who is your like biggest customer?

[00:16:51] Sure.

[00:16:52] So the biggest singular customer is the large aerospace firms that take not data from a singular

[00:17:01] craft and say, okay, I need to leap to go pick up grandma at the airport.

[00:17:05] But say, I want information on every single aircraft, or I need information on all of the

[00:17:13] aircraft that have this particular aircraft types.

[00:17:17] Because they're either my aircraft or they're my competitor's aircraft.

[00:17:22] So large aerospace organizations are the largest single customers as far as what data that we're

[00:17:29] compiling around the world and then packaging up for them.

[00:17:33] Interesting.

[00:17:33] So you do behind the scenes, a lot of data compiling and analysis and package it for the customer?

[00:17:42] Exactly.

[00:17:43] So we will combine all the information that comes off of the aircraft with all the information

[00:17:48] that's in our database, which is information about the aircraft itself.

[00:17:53] Because the ADS-B message doesn't have anything to do with the aircraft.

[00:17:56] It's just the call sign and the MODAS address or IKO 24 bill address.

[00:18:02] So we know which aircraft it is individually.

[00:18:05] It tied to the ADS-B message, but that doesn't tell you anything unless you have a database

[00:18:09] that says, okay, this hexadecimal address equals this registration.

[00:18:13] And now we know the aircraft type and who owns it and things like that.

[00:18:16] So interesting.

[00:18:17] So putting all that together gets packaged out and then organizations can look at that data

[00:18:22] and do what they need to do.

[00:18:23] Yeah, that makes my mind wander so much.

[00:18:26] So I guess if I'm an ad, like, I guess advertising agencies, they would probably be interested in

[00:18:31] this too, because I would want to know data on when are the most people going through

[00:18:37] Atlanta?

[00:18:38] When are the most people going through here?

[00:18:41] I guess, do you guys sell to ad agencies as well or not as much?

[00:18:45] Maybe that's a different company.

[00:18:47] Yeah.

[00:18:47] I mean, generally, I think that's really going to come from the airports because they're going

[00:18:51] to see, you know, kind of passenger throughput and things like that and have a better granular

[00:18:54] view on it.

[00:18:56] But we have worked with a few ad agencies in the past, mostly on activations.

[00:19:01] So knowing where a particular aircraft is was important to their marketing plan, whether

[00:19:07] it had a special livery on it or they were, you know, doing a reveal of something special

[00:19:13] and that aircraft was involved.

[00:19:15] So that was pretty fun, but nothing to my mind on the, you know, knowing passenger levels

[00:19:21] and things like that.

[00:19:22] That's interesting.

[00:19:23] I noticed on your website, you can be a subscriber, a seven day trial.

[00:19:28] Talk to me about why I would want to, as an individual, maybe subscribe to something like

[00:19:32] this.

[00:19:33] Sure.

[00:19:34] So we've got various levels of subscription based on various things, such as levels of

[00:19:40] nerdiness.

[00:19:41] If you're, if you're an av geek, I don't think I need to explain why you would want more aircraft

[00:19:46] in your life.

[00:19:47] But for the sake of purposes and say you're not, or you have a passing understanding of

[00:19:52] aviation.

[00:19:53] The basic proposition of the subscription model is you get more, more insight into what you're

[00:20:00] looking at than not having a subscription.

[00:20:03] So you get history on each aircraft and flight.

[00:20:06] So you can go back into the past, depending on what subscription level you have.

[00:20:10] You can look up to three years into the past.

[00:20:13] So if you want to play, replay any flight within the past three years, you can either

[00:20:17] look at that individually, say, you know, I want this particular aircraft and, and see

[00:20:21] what it did, you know, October two and a half year or two years ago.

[00:20:25] Or you can do what we have, we call global playback, which is looking at the airspace as it

[00:20:31] was at that time.

[00:20:32] And then as far as right now, kind of subscription stuff, a lot of the weather layers and things

[00:20:39] like that.

[00:20:39] Um, so you can add radar around, you can add a satellite weather for the globe.

[00:20:45] Uh, and then we have different radar products for, for various regions.

[00:20:48] So in the U S we have what we call North American radar.

[00:20:52] So that's everywhere in the U S plus Southern Canada and into a little bit into Mexico where

[00:20:58] you can look at kind of high resolution radar, which updates about every two minutes.

[00:21:02] Um, so you can see, you know, why, why are all those flights from New York to Los Angeles

[00:21:07] flying over Louisiana?

[00:21:10] And then you say, oh, there's a, you know, a huge line of storms covering half the country.

[00:21:15] Now it all makes sense.

[00:21:16] Right.

[00:21:16] So, uh, I I'm on your website and, uh, you can apply for a free receiver.

[00:21:22] We talked about 41,000 receivers.

[00:21:24] I didn't know this.

[00:21:25] I thought it was signal goes to the satellite, the satellite goes to a ground base station

[00:21:30] and that's where, how the yellow airplane shows up on the map.

[00:21:34] You guys have 41,000 of these things in people's hands all over the world.

[00:21:39] They're little on all seven continents.

[00:21:41] You're just for, for people listening to this, this is a, about a wallet sized box with a USB

[00:21:47] port.

[00:21:48] Uh, yeah.

[00:21:49] You would talk us through that?

[00:21:50] Sure.

[00:21:51] So, so the, the free receiver program that we run is you apply if you live or work somewhere

[00:21:58] that is in need of coverage or in need of redundancy or in need of more coverage, we will send

[00:22:07] you the full kit.

[00:22:07] So that's the receiver box for the computer itself, which has, you know, the, the storage and,

[00:22:15] and the actual computing power.

[00:22:16] We'll send you a GPS antenna so that we know exactly where you are.

[00:22:20] And that's important in just a second.

[00:22:23] And the ADS-B antenna so that we can actually get the radio or signals.

[00:22:27] Hmm.

[00:22:27] And the GPS antenna is important because ADS-B is fantastic, but not all aircraft yet have

[00:22:34] ADS-B.

[00:22:35] And so we do something called MLAT.

[00:22:38] So multilateration, we call it MLAT because multilateration saying that a lot is get trying.

[00:22:44] So we calculate the position of the aircraft based on how long it takes the signals to get

[00:22:49] there.

[00:22:49] Uh, so, so that requires knowing exactly where the receiver is, which is why the receiver comes

[00:22:54] with a GPS antenna.

[00:22:55] And, and you're responsible for plugging it in to the power, uh, plugging it into internet

[00:23:00] and installing the, um, the ADS-B antenna as high as you can.

[00:23:06] So if you have a mast, great.

[00:23:08] If you have a chimney that you can mount it, uh, to things like that so that we can get,

[00:23:13] uh, as good a view of the sky as we possibly can.

[00:23:16] There you go.

[00:23:17] And if you're in an area that needs coverage, you get a free flight radar 24 business plan

[00:23:22] subscription.

[00:23:23] Absolutely.

[00:23:24] Yeah.

[00:23:24] So anybody who hosts a receiver, whether it's one of our receivers that we send you,

[00:23:28] or if you build your own and then contribute data to our network, you get a free business

[00:23:33] subscription.

[00:23:34] So it's our top tier, uh, subscription plan.

[00:23:36] That's so cool.

[00:23:37] Had no idea.

[00:23:38] I love it.

[00:23:39] Some of the, the receiver locations that we have are just incredible.

[00:23:43] Um, we're, we asked people to send pictures in, you know, of, uh, of where they're going

[00:23:47] to install the receiver.

[00:23:48] And when the first one from Chernobyl came across our decks, we kind of said, wait, where

[00:23:53] is this receiver going to go?

[00:23:54] And it was, uh, it was on one of the administration buildings within view of the, of the actual

[00:24:03] reactor, the, what they call the new safe confinement.

[00:24:05] So the even bigger concrete bunker that they built over the reactor.

[00:24:09] Wow.

[00:24:10] That's really cool.

[00:24:11] Can I ask about MH360?

[00:24:13] Uh, what, did they have ADS-B?

[00:24:16] Did they have ADS-C?

[00:24:18] I don't know if they had ADS-C, but they did have ADS-B.

[00:24:21] So the, the track that we had on the aircraft was until it was a straight shot towards, towards

[00:24:30] Beijing still.

[00:24:31] Um, and then the transponder was cut out.

[00:24:33] So whether, whether we had any additional data after that or would have had any additional

[00:24:39] data after that, unfortunately we can't say because the, the transponder stopped broadcasting.

[00:24:44] Interesting.

[00:24:44] What's the, that brings up something.

[00:24:46] Cause I thought that ACARS had data that went to MH to tell them a, like kind of what happened

[00:24:53] or whatever.

[00:24:54] The satellite pings you mean?

[00:24:56] Yeah.

[00:24:56] What's, I guess, you know, for those aviators who are afraid to ask and for those who have

[00:25:01] no idea what I'm talking about, the ACARS is like a, a system that the airlines put

[00:25:06] on the plane that has some reporting capabilities to it.

[00:25:09] And that's how they communicate with crews on the ground and send data, gate information,

[00:25:13] things like that.

[00:25:15] Weather there's all kinds of, ACARS is amazing.

[00:25:17] Weight and balance.

[00:25:18] Um, all that information gets transmitted through ACARS, but what's the difference between what

[00:25:22] ACARS is doing and like ADS-B or your transponder?

[00:25:25] I mean, are they kind of working on the same frequency or what's the, what's the difference

[00:25:28] there?

[00:25:28] No, it's, it's, so ADS-B is 1090 megahertz.

[00:25:33] Um, and I'm not sure what ACARS is, but ACARS is, is text-based where ADS-B is a particular

[00:25:43] formatting thing.

[00:25:44] So if you looked at a raw ADS-B message, you would have no idea what it's at.

[00:25:48] Yeah.

[00:25:49] It's just code.

[00:25:49] Because it, it needs to be decoded because it's designed for high frequency reception

[00:25:55] or sending and receiving and each, you know, character means like a whole bit of information.

[00:26:02] Um, so there's, you know, uh, a whole book on exactly what, you know, A2 could mean in

[00:26:08] this bit position and context and things like that.

[00:26:11] Um, so it, yeah, it's, it's a bit more.

[00:26:14] But am I hearing it right?

[00:26:15] That if, you know, every fishing boat in the Pacific had one of your little modules on

[00:26:20] it, that we'd probably have a ground track for MH360.

[00:26:24] So we wouldn't because there was no data coming out of the aircraft.

[00:26:27] Ah, I see.

[00:26:27] I see.

[00:26:28] Uh, which is, which is where the, you know, that's where one of the big limitations of

[00:26:32] ADS-B comes in and you don't have, if the transponder isn't broadcasting, you don't have

[00:26:38] the information coming off the aircraft.

[00:26:39] So you're saying Ryan and I still can fly it five feet in a rented airplane?

[00:26:44] You, you could.

[00:26:45] Yes.

[00:26:46] I'm not going to give you permission, but I'm kidding.

[00:26:50] But, uh, yeah, yeah.

[00:26:51] If you turn the, uh, if you turn the transponder off, the ADS-B stops transmitting, right?

[00:26:56] But, but at this point, you know, we now know, okay, the transponder went off.

[00:27:00] And, and if you, if you're in an airliner, then, you know, then that's a huge red flag.

[00:27:05] And, and they've gone through, you know, a number of safety protocols to, to say, okay,

[00:27:09] what happens if the transponder stops broadcasting?

[00:27:12] Now we have other things.

[00:27:13] Um, and if you're turning it off from flying 500 feet, I think, I still think someone's

[00:27:18] going to, you know, come and ask you about what you were up to when you bring it back.

[00:27:22] You know, I want, I want to ask about what's on your roadmap.

[00:27:24] Um, if you're willing to share, uh, you know, obviously the last decade, two decades, uh,

[00:27:30] ADS-B has made massive advancements in technology, but in aviation kind of moves slowly in technology,

[00:27:36] I feel like.

[00:27:36] So what, what do you see, uh, what do you see over the next decade or so?

[00:27:39] I think the biggest thing, and I mentioned this before is that we've barely scratched

[00:27:43] the surface on what we can do with this data.

[00:27:46] Having the data is, is fantastic, but knowing what we can learn from it is, is really just

[00:27:54] the beginning here.

[00:27:56] We've started to see some of that come about with airspace efficiencies and being able to

[00:28:02] fly different profiles because we have aircraft space closer together.

[00:28:06] But there's also all sorts of other stuff because we're getting, for instance, weather

[00:28:09] information.

[00:28:10] So the aircraft's taking in temperature, wind.

[00:28:13] And so what can we do with that?

[00:28:15] We've, we've partnered with the Met Office in the UK on a project where all of the weather

[00:28:21] information along with the position information.

[00:28:23] So we know where that weather is, get sent to them and that helps influence their models.

[00:28:29] So they can say, okay, we can predict the weather much better knowing that high atmospheric weather

[00:28:35] that's happening at this time in this place.

[00:28:38] And it's occurring, you know, we know how wide it is because the aircraft over there are seeing

[00:28:44] something different.

[00:28:44] So it's really putting all this data to use now that we've got it, I think is the, is the

[00:28:50] real big thing over the next few years.

[00:28:52] That makes sense.

[00:28:53] How, how have you layered an AI or have you, have you used any AI functionality so far?

[00:28:58] I mean, I think the data that we have lends itself to that exploration.

[00:29:05] We're, I think just at the beginning of that, we don't have any products, you know, kind of

[00:29:09] with AI baked in yet, but it's definitely something that I think, you know, continuing to explore

[00:29:15] and to see what's worthwhile and, and where adds value, I think is the, the trickiest subject

[00:29:21] here is finding out, okay, we're, we're comfortable with this now.

[00:29:26] How does it add any value?

[00:29:28] It's a fascinating niche in the aviation industry to be doing what you're doing.

[00:29:35] You know, for those who are listening, who are maybe aspiring or maybe have children that

[00:29:39] are looking to get into a career and what you do, like what opportunities are there?

[00:29:42] What, what, what career options are there to work for a company like yours?

[00:29:47] I mean, the, the possibilities as far as working for something like flight radar 24, I think if you

[00:29:57] are interested at all in aviation, or especially if you're interested in computer science are,

[00:30:03] are ways to go.

[00:30:04] I mean, most of our company is, is developed talent working either on, you know, on the products that

[00:30:10] you see, or on the backend, making sure that the data that's powering the front end is, is exactly

[00:30:16] what it's supposed to be.

[00:30:17] So if you're interested in things, you know, along the computer science line, I think that's

[00:30:23] certainly a way to go because there's only a growing appetite for, for folks who are fluent in,

[00:30:29] and how to work with large datasets, especially as we keep generating more and more of them.

[00:30:33] In, in my mind, I think the, the most fascinating thing is being able to, to take that data and then

[00:30:41] gain knowledge out of it. Um, so, I mean, data scientists are, I mean, so well poised right now

[00:30:48] to, if you can understand large sets of data and then say what they mean rather than just,

[00:30:55] you know, manipulate them and, and, and keep them going. Uh, I think that's a huge opportunity.

[00:31:01] I know three data scientists who become CEOs of well-respected companies. And I, I think you

[00:31:08] nailed it. If you're looking at a career in data science, I mean, think about all the data that

[00:31:14] is now available widely to everybody. It's what do you do with it? How do you interact with it?

[00:31:19] How do you manipulate it? How do you extract good information? And then the people that

[00:31:26] know how to do that become very powerful in an organization and can really lead the direction

[00:31:31] of a company, which I think has lent itself to a lot of kind of natural progressions to being

[00:31:35] business leaders. Uh, so I, I really liked that. I think that's a good perspective. Um, I know three

[00:31:41] in the Seattle area that were data scientists who went to, went CEO. Um, and I just, I think it's a

[00:31:47] fascinating career either way. Yeah. I mean, if you can make data-driven decisions, I think that's,

[00:31:53] you know, and, and we, we talked about data-driven decisions for, for a long time. Um, but if you

[00:31:59] can make them and make them in context, I think is the, is the thing that's often missing and where

[00:32:06] you're saying, okay, well, I have some data, but you may have measured the wrong thing. And I think

[00:32:11] that knowing the difference and having that data scientist background and saying, are we measuring

[00:32:15] the right thing is, is one of the things that I think is often missing. Ian, you have a podcast,

[00:32:20] right? We do. Yes. Tell us about that. So, uh, the, the podcast is called AvTalk and it's, uh,

[00:32:29] exactly what it says. We talk about aviation. Uh, so it's co-hosted by myself and Jason Arbinowitz,

[00:32:37] who doesn't work for Flightradio24, but has allowed me to drag him into it, uh, kicking and screaming

[00:32:45] most of the time because, uh, we happen to be friends and we're having these conversations

[00:32:50] anyway. And I said, well, what if we just recorded this every week and then we could see if anybody

[00:32:59] wants to hear us talk. And as it turns out, uh, people do want to hear us talk. So, so what we

[00:33:05] focus on really is what's happening week to week in the commercial aviation space mostly. And, and then

[00:33:12] we try and find guests who are interesting and exciting to talk to that, that we would want to

[00:33:18] talk to outside of recording a podcast and, and hopefully bring them on and, and get as much,

[00:33:23] you know, of their knowledge into our brains as we possibly can. That's fantastic. Yeah. Add it to

[00:33:29] your, uh, subscribe and, uh, and download list on iTunes, Stitcher, whatever your, your favorite

[00:33:35] show platform is. Well, I'm sitting here nerding out on Flightradar24, seeing where everybody's

[00:33:41] going right now. Uh, this is just fascinating. Thanks for coming on, Ian. Absolutely. It's been

[00:33:46] my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Ian.