#82 - From LLCs and HSAs to Roth IRAs: Mastering Wealth Protection with Mark Kohler

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, Ryan Gibson from Passive Income Pilots. We're excited to announce our very first in-person meetup. So come see me and Tait at Atlanta, Georgia on Veterans Day, November 11th from 5 to 8 p.m. And we're going to be meeting at the Line Creek Brewing in Peachtree City, Georgia. Come unwind, relax, meet fellow aviators that invest and fly and also meet myself and Tait. We look forward to seeing you there. If you'd like to register, check out the link in the show notes to register for the event.

[00:00:29] The space is limited, so please go in early and register. Thanks, and let's get back to the show.

[00:00:36] Hey, welcome back to Passive Income Pilots, everyone. Tait Duryea here with Ryan Gibson. What's happening? How's Seattle?

[00:00:43] Oh, you know, it's gloomy. It's that time of year. Some days are great. Some days are overcast, but hey, we're getting through it. You know, I've been scanning the forum. So the Passive Income Pilots forum. I've also been another couple of aviation tax finance forums.

[00:00:57] And I've been reading everybody's questions, and I'm very excited that we were able to bring on somebody who is going to answer nearly every question that I've seen come in to the investing forum, to Passive Income Pilots Facebook forum.

[00:01:10] And we're going to just get right to it, and we're going to have a tax attorney who specializes in tax and legal to talk about all the things that people have been asking about, from HSAs to 401ks to self-directed IRAs to cattle ranchers and tax deductions there, 1031 exchanges.

[00:01:28] Pretty much anything that anybody's ever asked about contributions and distributions, we're going to go through it right now.

[00:01:34] And I want to encourage our listeners to send us an email at ask at passiveincomepilots.com.

[00:01:40] Just send us an email. If you have a question, just send it in.

[00:01:42] We may not get to it on the very next episode, but we want to actually bring on guests who know the information and help grow your network and be a marketplace to where you guys can go find really good experts in the industry.

[00:01:54] You know, we keep harping on this. This isn't just a podcast. This is a community.

[00:01:58] You know, we're building a community here, and we can use our collective strength in order to build network and net worth together.

[00:02:06] And, you know, we can pull a tax advisor, attorney, and CPA onto the show to answer questions because we have the economies of scale here.

[00:02:14] So, yeah, shoot us an email, ask at passiveincomepilots.com.

[00:02:17] If you haven't already, join the Facebook group.

[00:02:20] The Facebook group has some really good chatter starting to go.

[00:02:22] So if you have questions, you know, maybe, you know, questions that you think other people would benefit from, throw it in the Facebook group so that it's on an open forum and other people can read those responses.

[00:02:32] Because we're going to start adding more and more tax legal professionals to the Facebook group that can actively start answering some of those questions on the forum as well.

[00:02:40] And, of course, we'll answer those questions live on the show as well.

[00:02:44] So thank you for those of you who have written in. We appreciate it.

[00:02:47] So we're bringing on an exceptional guest who's an attorney for over 20 years, has his own law firm, has his own tax firm, has prepared people's taxes, prepared people's LLCs.

[00:02:57] He runs a self-directed IRA company.

[00:03:00] So, you know, so all this knowledge that we're going to bring to the podcast, we're going to air that today.

[00:03:05] And it's fantastic.

[00:03:06] And I just wanted to take a minute, if you just are tuning in for the first time, this is the first episode you're listening to.

[00:03:12] Here's who we are, right?

[00:03:13] I've been an airline pilot for over 18 years and, you know, went the civilian route, got my ratings, got into the airlines, and then just had that itch where I wanted to do something else.

[00:03:22] Became an entrepreneur, started a near $700 million portfolio of real estate around the country, and wanted to start this podcast with Tate when we bumped into each other.

[00:03:32] And Tate's going to tell you it's who he is.

[00:03:34] When, you know, we got into real estate, Tate and I actually met at a real estate conference about seven or eight years ago, and just became really good friends and wanted to share our network with the rest of the aviation community as it pertains to practical knowledge and insights for investing.

[00:03:48] And so this podcast isn't just about real estate or self-directing or anything like that.

[00:03:52] We've had over 80 episodes now, I'm counting.

[00:03:55] And so if you look back through our episodes, we bring on everybody from crypto, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, financial advisors.

[00:04:01] We bring on real estate and tax professionals.

[00:04:04] We bring on NFL superstars that have won Super Bowls or now transitioning into awesome careers.

[00:04:09] Astronauts.

[00:04:09] We bring on astronauts.

[00:04:11] I mean, we bring on everybody, right?

[00:04:12] But the underlying theme is, is how can we get better as aviators in the investing space and how can we really bring meaningful content and connections to help build your team and just do more than just dump a bunch of money into a 401k, which by the way, isn't a bad strategy.

[00:04:25] No, I mean, it's a good place to start.

[00:04:27] But to give some background, I also have been an airline pilot for coming up on 15 years now with the majors.

[00:04:32] I fly the A330.

[00:04:34] It's the best career under the sun.

[00:04:36] But, you know, when I was a kid, I actually wanted to go into business.

[00:04:38] I was very entrepreneurial.

[00:04:40] I wanted to study real estate, entrepreneurship, and business.

[00:04:43] And I always felt like I was just out of reach of really good knowledge.

[00:04:49] And as many books and podcasts and, you know, information I consumed, it just didn't feel like I was really firing on all cylinders.

[00:04:56] And I know a lot of pilots out there feel like that.

[00:04:58] It wasn't until I started building my network, started going to real estate conferences.

[00:05:02] I had already built a respectable real estate portfolio of my own at that time.

[00:05:07] But I started going to these conferences, learning and meeting.

[00:05:10] Really, the big catalyst was starting to meet and network with highly successful people who were light years ahead of me.

[00:05:18] Ryan and I met at that first conference seven or eight years ago.

[00:05:20] I also have a large real estate company where we aggregate capital and deploy into real estate.

[00:05:26] We've invested across over a billion in assets over the last five years.

[00:05:29] But really, we just wanted to put this podcast together to aggregate information and network.

[00:05:36] It took me and Ryan 10, 15 years to put together the Rolodex that we have now.

[00:05:43] And we'd like to shortcut that cycle for you.

[00:05:46] And that's what we want to do is bring on exceptional guests onto the podcast.

[00:05:50] We aren't necessarily vetting them or vouching for them.

[00:05:53] This show doesn't give any tax, legal or investment advice.

[00:05:57] This is an educational platform.

[00:05:58] But the idea is to connect you with potential third parties that you can put in your Rolodex and add to your bench for your financial life.

[00:06:07] And by the way, first networking event that we're hosting as a podcast will be in Atlanta on November 11th from 5 to 8 p.m.

[00:06:15] at the Lion Creek Brewing in Peachtree City, Georgia, just south of the Atlanta airport there.

[00:06:19] So hope to see you then.

[00:06:21] Let's get to the show.

[00:06:22] Let's get to the show.

[00:06:25] Welcome to Passive Income Pilots, where pilots upgrade their money.

[00:06:30] This is the definitive source for personal finance and investment tactics for aviators.

[00:06:36] We interview world-renowned experts and share these lessons with the flying community.

[00:06:41] So if you're ready for practical knowledge and insights, let's roll.

[00:06:45] Mark, welcome to the show.

[00:06:46] You're probably going to be one of my favorite guests because you take the things that nobody wants to talk about,

[00:06:51] you make them fun and exciting.

[00:06:52] I personally listened to about 50 episodes of your podcast about eight, nine years ago, and it got me all excited about tax and legal stuff.

[00:07:01] So if people aren't going to get excited today, then maybe you don't get excited about anything.

[00:07:05] So welcome, Mark.

[00:07:06] Well, thanks for having me.

[00:07:07] I feel bad that you listened to 59 years ago, and then I lost you somewhere in the mix.

[00:07:11] So, you know, tax laws change, my friend.

[00:07:13] So I hope I'll get you back on the wagon.

[00:07:16] We'll get you back on.

[00:07:17] No, you've got a great show, and we're just excited to bring you on.

[00:07:20] I've got 15 questions for you.

[00:07:22] I've actually am part of a couple of airline pilot Facebook groups that have just, what do I do with LLCs?

[00:07:30] What do I do with taxes?

[00:07:32] You know, what side hustles?

[00:07:34] How do I shelter?

[00:07:35] How do I get all these things?

[00:07:36] So we're going to get into that.

[00:07:37] Before we get into that, though, why don't you just tell the listeners who you are?

[00:07:39] Oh, you bet.

[00:07:40] You bet.

[00:07:41] And thanks for that wonderful introduction.

[00:07:42] I appreciate it.

[00:07:43] And I've got my logbook here.

[00:07:45] Can I count?

[00:07:45] Since I'm talking to pilots, can I clock some time here?

[00:07:48] Yes.

[00:07:48] Okay.

[00:07:48] All right.

[00:07:49] I want to let you guys know I had a Bonanza for a while.

[00:07:51] I had a Bonanza A36 TC.

[00:07:54] Did you?

[00:07:54] You know?

[00:07:55] Nice.

[00:07:55] And it's exactly what I'm partners on.

[00:07:57] Are you really?

[00:07:58] What year?

[00:07:59] Yeah.

[00:07:59] Oh, my gosh.

[00:08:00] What was it?

[00:08:01] This was 10 years ago.

[00:08:03] You know, they're called doctor and lawyer killers for a reason.

[00:08:06] So I had some close friends after, you know, you're like,

[00:08:09] what are you, an idiot?

[00:08:10] You can't do this.

[00:08:11] You shoot from the hip way too much.

[00:08:12] So anyway, but I had plenty of right seat time screwing around.

[00:08:16] It was a lot of fun.

[00:08:17] And, you know, I really have so much respect for pilots because they're just so detail

[00:08:23] oriented, careful, pragmatic.

[00:08:25] They're engineers, really are just engineers that freaking take a machine and fly it through

[00:08:30] the air.

[00:08:30] And so just have so much respect for you guys.

[00:08:33] I've been in this tax and legal industry for, you know, 20 plus years.

[00:08:36] I love small business, love Main Street America and saving taxes.

[00:08:42] So many people don't realize it's easier to save money than make money.

[00:08:45] We work so hard during the week, so many hours working for the man or starting our own little

[00:08:52] side hustle or main hustle.

[00:08:54] And we work so hard to make a sale or bring in a customer, but a little bit of planning,

[00:09:00] a little bit of tweaking the equation can have astronomical benefits, especially in the

[00:09:05] long run and saving taxes immediately by just getting engaged in the process.

[00:09:10] And so I'm so grateful we're talking today.

[00:09:12] I hope to share some, just answer questions too.

[00:09:15] If you've got a list, I freaking love it.

[00:09:17] So tax and legal 101, man, let's hit it.

[00:09:19] So, well, you know, before the show, we were talking about who our listeners are, right?

[00:09:24] So our listeners are airline pilots, high paid professionals that are earning, you know,

[00:09:30] anywhere from 200 to 500,000, maybe even more per year.

[00:09:33] And especially pilots are starting to come into some pretty high paying jobs and they

[00:09:39] want to know how to save taxes.

[00:09:41] They want to know what they can do to shield income or maybe side gigs that they can do

[00:09:46] to offset some of that income.

[00:09:47] So maybe if you could just start there, I think that would be a great place to kind

[00:09:51] of go into the podcast on.

[00:09:53] Okay.

[00:09:53] Well, yeah, I'll just give you the secret to life here in 20 minutes and we'll be good.

[00:09:57] Perfect.

[00:09:57] All right.

[00:09:59] It is a big conversation.

[00:10:01] Yeah.

[00:10:01] Let's hit some, some key points that I, I want you guys to hear from the horse's mouth,

[00:10:06] if you will, as a tax lawyer, helping small business for again, years and years, I've done

[00:10:11] my 10,000 consultations, much like you pilots, I've hit those hours, you know, the 10,000 hours,

[00:10:15] you know, you can fly anything now, whatever.

[00:10:16] However, there's some tried and true principles and it's so easy to get on Google and get excited

[00:10:22] about someone offering this strategy or this strategy.

[00:10:24] It sounds so sexy.

[00:10:25] We're dying to get that too good to be true strategy.

[00:10:28] So let me hit some truths that you've just got to know how gravity works here.

[00:10:33] The first one is if you're a W-2 wager, corporate job, making that type of income and you don't

[00:10:40] give me something to work with, whether it's rental property or some form of it, which we'll

[00:10:45] talk about or a side hustle of some sort, which we'll talk about.

[00:10:49] I got nothing.

[00:10:51] I shouldn't say nothing because we're going to talk about self-directing the mega backdoor

[00:10:55] Roth and building a Roth account because one of the best ways to save taxes is not even have

[00:11:01] taxable income.

[00:11:02] And I've had pilot clients over the years that really get focused on chunking where we're

[00:11:06] chunking at our traditional IRA and traditional 401k moving into a Roth position because once

[00:11:11] we do, we'll never pay tax again.

[00:11:13] That's a long-term play and we're not creating savings on our tax returns right now, but we're

[00:11:18] putting ourselves in a position five to 10 years from now where we've got a tax-free ATM.

[00:11:23] So we can go back and revisit that, but that's one of the only few things I can wow you with.

[00:11:29] Yeah, we can buy some oil and gas partnerships.

[00:11:32] Yeah, we can do a little bit of solar, which can be very risky, but there's really not much

[00:11:38] if you're not willing.

[00:11:39] So here's the truth I'm trying to tell you folks.

[00:11:41] If you're not willing to talk about a side hustle, side business, and especially rental

[00:11:48] property, it's going to be real tough to save you taxes right now in the next 18 months.

[00:11:54] Now we got, again, long-term principles and strategies that we can employ, but I've got

[00:11:58] to have you open to that idea.

[00:11:59] Well, I work already 60 hours a week.

[00:12:01] I'm not saying I'm going to add another job to your life, but I need you to look at this

[00:12:06] direction a little bit.

[00:12:07] And if you're married, it opens up a lot of opportunities with your spouse too.

[00:12:12] Well, that's great.

[00:12:13] We call this passive income pilot, so I guess we'll all just pack it up and go home since

[00:12:16] you're saying we have to be active.

[00:12:18] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:12:18] Oh, I didn't say that.

[00:12:20] I didn't say that.

[00:12:21] I love passive income too.

[00:12:24] What I want is material participation.

[00:12:27] There we go.

[00:12:27] There's a key word in there.

[00:12:29] Active?

[00:12:29] Active?

[00:12:30] It's the magic word.

[00:12:31] Yeah.

[00:12:32] I'm not up for that.

[00:12:34] I love it.

[00:12:35] Anyway, so that's where the ball starts, I think.

[00:12:37] Very important.

[00:12:38] No, that's a great point.

[00:12:39] There's almost no such thing as passive income.

[00:12:41] No, no, no, no.

[00:12:42] We say there are very few things in life that you don't have to work at least a little bit

[00:12:46] for, but this sounds like it's one that's worth it.

[00:12:49] Gosh, and it's so hard to articulate this because I'm trying to give some general principles

[00:12:53] here that I got to have something to work with.

[00:12:55] Now, if we want to create passive income that's tax-deferred or tax-free, hell yeah.

[00:12:59] But if I just go out and create passive income that's taxable, that's great.

[00:13:03] I love passive income.

[00:13:05] I'm not saying do it, but we're not moving the needle with your tax savings.

[00:13:08] So we've got to go at it in a tax-preferred way.

[00:13:11] So as we go to invest in syndications, promissory notes, trust deeds, crypto, metaverse, NFTs,

[00:13:20] whatever we're hot and bothered with, let's talk about doing it in a Roth IRA.

[00:13:24] Let's get money in a Roth position.

[00:13:27] Now the world's your oyster.

[00:13:28] Now you're making passive income that will never, ever, ever be taxed.

[00:13:32] So it's not either or.

[00:13:34] It's not passive income or pay taxes.

[00:13:35] It's, hell, I can do passive income.

[00:13:37] Let's do it in a tax-preferred way.

[00:13:39] That's the two directions I'd like to go.

[00:13:41] That's where I think your expertise really shines is, you know, passive income in a tax-deferred

[00:13:46] way and active income to get material participation so that you can get these tax advantages.

[00:13:52] I think those are two things that are really umbrella to the whole show.

[00:13:56] You know, that's what we're really after.

[00:13:57] So excited to get into that.

[00:13:58] Cool.

[00:13:59] You know, we probably should save my most killer strategy here for a little later.

[00:14:03] Then it's going to create some anticipation for you folks.

[00:14:06] You got to stay tuned here.

[00:14:08] Let's hit some of these questions that are commonly asked by your followers and some of

[00:14:11] the ones that might be nagging you that you get, you know, get different answers on.

[00:14:14] Yeah.

[00:14:15] So I've got one.

[00:14:16] I'll just jump right in.

[00:14:17] LLCs.

[00:14:18] Okay.

[00:14:18] Right.

[00:14:18] This is an airline pilot asking, you know, who has them?

[00:14:20] What do you use them for?

[00:14:22] What are they beneficial for?

[00:14:24] Are they too much effort?

[00:14:25] Do you get, you know, what you put into it?

[00:14:27] Let's get into that.

[00:14:28] Yep.

[00:14:28] Great, great question.

[00:14:29] In the introduction, some of you may have heard, so I want to just give you a little

[00:14:32] background for 30 seconds so you have faith in my answer.

[00:14:35] So I am an attorney, a senior partner in a firm.

[00:14:38] We've been around for 23 years now.

[00:14:40] CPA.

[00:14:41] I've clerked in the tax court.

[00:14:42] I've worked for KPMG, the big five.

[00:14:45] I've done all the, written four books on this.

[00:14:47] I write, I give CE on this.

[00:14:49] I'm an Arizona CPA board, AICPA.

[00:14:51] So I want you to know you're getting a straight answer.

[00:14:54] Stand behind this.

[00:14:57] LLCs do not save taxes.

[00:15:00] If anybody's selling you, you need an LLC to save taxes.

[00:15:03] They're full of crap.

[00:15:05] I'm trying to sell you something.

[00:15:06] Now, are LLCs still important?

[00:15:08] Yes.

[00:15:09] Can they be transitioned to create some tax savings?

[00:15:12] Absolutely.

[00:15:13] But on the face of it, just going out and sending up an LLC, it's not going to take me taxes.

[00:15:17] Do I need an LLC to open a business?

[00:15:19] No.

[00:15:20] You can open a business tomorrow.

[00:15:21] Start selling lemonade on the corner.

[00:15:23] Buy a rental property.

[00:15:24] Go open a restaurant.

[00:15:25] You can do it in your own name.

[00:15:26] Not recommended for liability purposes.

[00:15:29] But you don't have to have an LLC to have a business.

[00:15:32] And you're not going to save taxes with an LLC.

[00:15:34] So let's go in with our eyes wide open.

[00:15:36] Where are LLCs freaking awesome?

[00:15:38] For again, number one, asset protection.

[00:15:41] So if I'm going to open a, buy a rental property, open a business, start a business.

[00:15:45] Now, maybe I'm selling jeans on eBay in my business.

[00:15:47] No liability.

[00:15:48] Fine.

[00:15:48] But if I do have any exposure, I want to have that LLC in place to protect me.

[00:15:53] That's number one.

[00:15:54] Number two, you two guys, you're going to partner up.

[00:15:57] You know, you call up Ryan and you're like, hey, let's go flip this house or let's go import

[00:16:04] this and sell it online or let's go do that.

[00:16:06] Well, now you have joint and vicarious liability.

[00:16:09] If Tate's out there and punches someone in the face, you're on the hook too.

[00:16:12] If it has anything to do with the business, you both can get sued for each other's actions.

[00:16:16] You're also going to start fighting a year from now on who's putting in money and who's

[00:16:19] not and how are we going to split things up and la, la, la, la.

[00:16:22] So an LLC provides great partnership clarity, partnership relationships, partnership strategy.

[00:16:29] So we can create tax write-offs for Tate in one situation and tax write-offs for Ryan

[00:16:34] in another.

[00:16:35] And we can start bifurcating the income in creative ways.

[00:16:38] So an LLC is a great clearinghouse between partners.

[00:16:42] The last thing is an LLC, and these are probably the big three.

[00:16:46] An LLC is so flexible.

[00:16:48] It's like a chameleon.

[00:16:49] I can turn it into an S corporation retroactively.

[00:16:52] I can turn it into a C corporation retroactively.

[00:16:54] I can have that LLC owned by my IRA, my 401k, my health savings account.

[00:16:59] I could have my kids part of it or not.

[00:17:01] I could have my spouse part of it.

[00:17:02] So they're so flexible that they give us something to work with.

[00:17:07] But again, on the face of it, I'm going to open an LLC to hold my stock.

[00:17:10] I'm going to save taxes.

[00:17:11] No, you're not.

[00:17:12] No, you're not.

[00:17:13] You know, let's have a real direct reason for setting them up.

[00:17:17] So truth be told.

[00:17:18] I love it.

[00:17:19] Yeah.

[00:17:19] I love that.

[00:17:20] I think it gets in the way.

[00:17:21] Yeah.

[00:17:22] It gets in the way of people actually taking action a lot when they say, oh, I've got to

[00:17:26] set up my LLC.

[00:17:27] And then they don't do anything until they set up their LLC.

[00:17:30] I mean, I probably should set one up for my kids.

[00:17:32] But I just got into the vending machine business with my seven-year-old daughter, my four-year-old

[00:17:36] son.

[00:17:37] And like, we didn't start an LLC.

[00:17:38] We just went and put the vending machine up and got the contract to start selling candy

[00:17:42] and drinks.

[00:17:43] Right.

[00:17:43] So like, don't let that like hold you up from taking action.

[00:17:46] I think that's a big thing that people, they get convoluted and they complicated or whatever.

[00:17:51] But also, I think the point is well taken, Mark.

[00:17:54] Like, don't fly like without protection for something that has a lot of potential liability.

[00:17:59] Like, talk to an attorney like Mark and get your LLC set up in a way that like, if you're

[00:18:02] going to do something very serious, that might expose you to a lot of liability.

[00:18:06] So point well taken.

[00:18:07] And kids are open up a whole Pandora's box.

[00:18:11] I'm not typically going to want your kids as part owners and an entity with you.

[00:18:14] We're going to create tax shelters.

[00:18:16] Kids are tax shelters.

[00:18:17] And when you do it right, because we're paying for all this stuff for our kids, school lunch,

[00:18:22] school clothes, private school, they turned into teenagers.

[00:18:26] Then we got cars and gas and food.

[00:18:28] And then they turn into young adults.

[00:18:30] So we got college tuition and travel and la la.

[00:18:32] All those costs that we pay taxes at these high rates.

[00:18:35] So all of you listening, let me give you another tip here.

[00:18:37] All of you listening, they're like, okay, I'm making three to 400 grand a year.

[00:18:42] Okay, go pay tax on that and then give money to your kids.

[00:18:45] What?

[00:18:46] Your kids don't pay tax on the first 14 grand.

[00:18:49] So if I can get my kids engaged in some sort of side hustle business or rental property,

[00:18:54] now I can pay them for being involved, take a complete tax deduction for it.

[00:18:58] No FICA, no SUDA, no FUDA, no workers comp.

[00:19:02] And they don't even pay taxes on the first 14K and change.

[00:19:06] That's a standard deduction.

[00:19:07] They go work at McDonald's.

[00:19:08] They don't pay tax on that.

[00:19:09] They go work for you.

[00:19:10] They don't pay tax on that.

[00:19:11] So you can create the shelter for a client that may go, hey, I'm going to do some consulting

[00:19:16] and make 30 or 40 grand a year.

[00:19:17] Great.

[00:19:18] I can wipe that out.

[00:19:19] Now we just created 30 to 40 grand of tax-free income because you weren't going to pay for

[00:19:23] this crap anyway with the kids.

[00:19:25] Now let's put them on the payroll.

[00:19:26] Let's put them on the board of advisors, the board of directors.

[00:19:29] Maybe we give them a 1099.

[00:19:31] Maybe we give them a W-2.

[00:19:32] Those are all questions I answer in my book and on all sorts of platforms and podcasts.

[00:19:36] A lot, a lot.

[00:19:36] There's a lot to it.

[00:19:37] But once you crack that code and only about 10% of CPAs figure this out and they don't

[00:19:43] tell their clients about it.

[00:19:44] So if we can unlock this side of you with a business venture, some side gig, some rental

[00:19:51] property, now I've got the family on the payroll who are in a much, much lower tax bracket

[00:19:56] or no tax bracket.

[00:19:57] So we're planning our family taxes as a whole.

[00:20:00] That's where the tax savings is.

[00:20:02] Because if I can start creating that movement of money within the family for money I'm going

[00:20:07] to pay for anyway, now I've created a lower effective tax rate.

[00:20:11] You're still going to pay taxes, but I'd rather you pay it on a rate of 14% on everything rather

[00:20:17] than 17%.

[00:20:18] And that difference is where the power is.

[00:20:21] What do you say to someone who says, you know, this sounds risky.

[00:20:24] I don't know.

[00:20:26] You know, is this legal?

[00:20:28] What do you say to those people?

[00:20:29] It is not risky.

[00:20:31] Do you know what?

[00:20:31] I reduce people's chances of an audit.

[00:20:34] S Corporation, 15 times less chance of an audit.

[00:20:37] A partnership tax return between a husband and wife, 14 times less chance of an audit.

[00:20:41] And then we get this straight.

[00:20:42] New York City Deli hiring their kids to work there in the summer.

[00:20:45] Oklahoma City Farm.

[00:20:46] A realtor in Orange County, California, when we hire our kids in our business all the time,

[00:20:52] but we don't actually formalize it.

[00:20:53] We don't put it on the tax return the way it should go.

[00:20:56] Family business is what America was built on.

[00:20:58] It's okay.

[00:20:59] I have never had a client audited for putting their kids on payroll.

[00:21:03] In 25 years, I've never had a client audited.

[00:21:06] I've had clients audited for trying to pay their nurse under the table or trying to pay

[00:21:10] someone at 1099 when really they were W-2.

[00:21:13] And when the agent gets in there and they're like, oh, who's this guy that's getting 30

[00:21:17] grand?

[00:21:17] Oh, that's the owner's son that's at college helping with marketing.

[00:21:21] Oh, okay.

[00:21:21] That's good.

[00:21:21] Who's this kid over here?

[00:21:23] You're paying him 10 grand?

[00:21:24] Oh yeah.

[00:21:25] That's the teenager that works in the office doing janitorial.

[00:21:27] Oh, okay.

[00:21:27] That's fine.

[00:21:28] Kids are not on the radar of the IRS.

[00:21:32] It's not worth fighting over.

[00:21:33] They're going to lose.

[00:21:34] And so this is in the code.

[00:21:37] It's in the case law.

[00:21:38] It's not high risk.

[00:21:39] But your accountant, the most nervous people, nervous Nellies in the world are accountants

[00:21:44] and we're relying on them to help us with the biggest cost in our lives.

[00:21:47] They're scared to death of their own shadow.

[00:21:49] They were up in the band playing the flute during the football games.

[00:21:52] You want to be working with the guy that was smoking weed under the bleachers.

[00:21:55] That's the guy you want to be working with.

[00:21:57] I'm not telling you if I was in the bleachers or under the bleachers.

[00:21:59] I'm just saying.

[00:22:00] What's the minimum age to employ your kids?

[00:22:02] One year old.

[00:22:09] They're pediatric dentists.

[00:22:10] They shoot YouTube videos and ads with their kids in the dental chair showing how you are

[00:22:15] this, how we help kids.

[00:22:16] They get a modeling fee.

[00:22:17] They're helping.

[00:22:18] I have contractors that have their five and six-year-olds walking around construction sites,

[00:22:22] picking up nails.

[00:22:23] I have kids putting stuff in envelopes.

[00:22:26] Teenagers, easy, schmeezy.

[00:22:28] I mean, once kids turn 12 years old, I'm putting them on the board of advisors.

[00:22:31] They're involved in the marketing and video and social media and YouTube and all the little

[00:22:37] things that it's janitorial, shredding paper.

[00:22:40] It's great.

[00:22:41] I mean, the kids are such a great tax deduction.

[00:22:44] And it's great to teach them a few lessons about working and business, right?

[00:22:48] So, you know, it's great.

[00:22:49] Yeah.

[00:22:50] Yeah.

[00:22:50] One of my secret weapons is the family board meeting.

[00:22:53] You pilots out there, you know what family offices are.

[00:22:56] Oh, yes, you do.

[00:22:58] All of you private pilots out there, you know what a family office is.

[00:23:01] Is that only for the hundred million type client?

[00:23:03] Can't a family have a family office?

[00:23:05] Even if it's their little side hustle as a family,

[00:23:08] stuffing envelopes and selling something online on Etsy or eBay?

[00:23:11] Sure.

[00:23:12] An LLC, a corporation, even at the smallest level can and should have a board of directors

[00:23:18] or board advisors.

[00:23:19] And your kids should all be on the board and your spouse.

[00:23:21] And you're working as a family.

[00:23:23] Your family trip to have a board meeting, maybe in the third week of November when you

[00:23:28] eat turkey, that's a write-off.

[00:23:30] You're going to talk business on your board meetings.

[00:23:33] We're going to write checks to our kids for helping in the business, and they're going

[00:23:37] to pay for their own school lunch.

[00:23:39] They're going to pay for their own auto and gas and insurance.

[00:23:43] And all of a sudden, you're shifting income for things you're going to pay for anyway.

[00:23:46] I'm sorry.

[00:23:46] I'm repeating myself.

[00:23:47] It's just so exciting when a family catches the vision of this.

[00:23:51] No, that's great.

[00:23:51] So there's obviously documentation involved in terms of documenting the board meeting with

[00:23:57] minutes and things like that.

[00:23:58] And you want to be working with a professional who can guide you through this.

[00:24:01] But on a basic level, can you share a few tips and tricks on how you would account for

[00:24:05] the money that you're paying your kids, how you would account for the family board meeting?

[00:24:09] You bet.

[00:24:10] There's a couple of things going on there.

[00:24:12] This is why it's called tax and legal.

[00:24:14] There's a legal piece and a tax piece.

[00:24:16] The legal piece is you do need a legitimate LLC.

[00:24:20] You need a legitimate business behind that.

[00:24:22] Where's the revenue?

[00:24:23] What are the expenses?

[00:24:24] What are the kids' duties?

[00:24:25] If they're two years old or 22 years old, what are they doing?

[00:24:28] It's got to make sense, of course.

[00:24:30] That legal structure is going to have a board, board of advisors, board of directors.

[00:24:34] It's going to be in the operating agreement of bylaws.

[00:24:36] When we set up an entity for any client, we'll set up over 2,000 entities this year in our

[00:24:40] law firm around the country.

[00:24:41] We'll have clients in any state or a boutique, really, with only 14 lawyers.

[00:24:45] But we got a machine.

[00:24:46] So we're going to set up all these entities for clients.

[00:24:48] And we always ask, who's on your board?

[00:24:50] Brother, sister, mom, dad, kids.

[00:24:52] Boom.

[00:24:52] They're on your board.

[00:24:53] Great.

[00:24:53] You need a board meeting every year.

[00:24:54] It's good for asset protection to have that meeting every year.

[00:24:58] Some people are like, oh, I don't want to have a board meeting.

[00:25:00] Why?

[00:25:00] It's a write-off.

[00:25:01] Put everybody on a plane.

[00:25:02] Let's go.

[00:25:02] Puerto Rico.

[00:25:03] Boom.

[00:25:04] Let's do it.

[00:25:04] You know, so we're going to have a meeting and we're going to write it off an illegal.

[00:25:08] Now, that's called company maintenance.

[00:25:10] Over 13 years ago, we started Main Street Business Services.

[00:25:13] It's a company that does company maintenance for our clients.

[00:25:16] We send you a 25-point questionnaire.

[00:25:18] You do your minutes.

[00:25:19] You have a meeting.

[00:25:20] You send it back.

[00:25:21] The ladies or guys type it up.

[00:25:22] Make it look pretty.

[00:25:23] Put it in your corporate book.

[00:25:24] We do your BOI filing, which is your business owner information form, which is now due this

[00:25:28] year.

[00:25:29] First time ever.

[00:25:30] We do that for you.

[00:25:31] We make sure you're good with the state.

[00:25:32] It's super expensive.

[00:25:34] I think it's $300 a year.

[00:25:36] I know.

[00:25:36] I know.

[00:25:37] It's a highway robbery.

[00:25:38] $300 a year to keep your shit together, people.

[00:25:40] Yeah, I know.

[00:25:40] I know.

[00:25:41] It's expensive.

[00:25:41] I apologize.

[00:25:42] So $300 a year to have a formal board meeting where I love what you said, Ryan, where you're

[00:25:50] going to teach financial literacy.

[00:25:51] You're going to teach entrepreneurship.

[00:25:53] You're going to teach the American dream.

[00:25:55] And you're going to have that board meeting to legally substantiate your operation.

[00:26:01] Then, Tate, what you bring up is the accounting side.

[00:26:05] Kids need their own bank account.

[00:26:07] We're going to do online transfers for payments.

[00:26:09] Are we going to W-2 or 1099?

[00:26:11] How old are they?

[00:26:12] There's some strategy in there, but we're going to make sure we transfer.

[00:26:15] If you're going to launder money, you've got to move the money.

[00:26:17] Sorry, did I say launder?

[00:26:18] Can I say that on this show?

[00:26:19] I'm just joking.

[00:26:20] If we're going to move money, we've got to actually move it.

[00:26:23] You can't say I paid my kids.

[00:26:24] You've got to actually do it.

[00:26:25] So the accounting side of that equation is making sure that the company actually pays

[00:26:30] the kids.

[00:26:30] They pay for their own crap.

[00:26:32] And then you put money in the business if you need to.

[00:26:34] You're like, well, my business doesn't make enough money.

[00:26:35] Then put money in it.

[00:26:36] You can run it at a loss for a year or maybe even two.

[00:26:39] Now we're getting a deduction against other income.

[00:26:42] See the play?

[00:26:43] We're making a smoothie, guys.

[00:26:45] Your 1040 tax return should be a smoothie.

[00:26:47] We're bringing in losses here, gains over here, passive income here, active income here,

[00:26:52] material participation here.

[00:26:53] We're building a beautiful picture.

[00:26:56] And if your accountant doesn't talk like this, you got the wrong freaking accountant.

[00:26:59] I'll hook you guys up with a network of my accountants that speak more Kohler.

[00:27:02] But anyway, sorry I get going again.

[00:27:05] No, I love it.

[00:27:06] This is incredible.

[00:27:07] I can see the light bulbs going off in everyone who's listening.

[00:27:10] I just love this stuff so much.

[00:27:12] I love this stuff.

[00:27:13] I eat it up.

[00:27:14] Well, kind of jumping into another question that we had, questions about a 401A and transferring

[00:27:19] to a Roth IRA.

[00:27:20] And they opted out of the market-based cash balance plan.

[00:27:24] And they're under 50.

[00:27:26] And they've always maxed out their 401k contribution at the $23,000 level.

[00:27:31] And then the airline maxes out the rest, totaling about $69,000 for their 401k contribution.

[00:27:37] And they heard that they can also put after-tax dollars into a workplace 401A and transfer it

[00:27:43] to a personal Roth IRA.

[00:27:45] And there's no limit.

[00:27:46] But they are trying to find it on Google.

[00:27:50] Little conflicting, confusing data.

[00:27:51] Is that something that they can do?

[00:27:53] They're basically looking to put money into more tax-advantaged accounts, you know, other

[00:27:57] than like the 529, et cetera.

[00:27:59] Absolutely.

[00:28:00] So there are so many different 401 AKH plans.

[00:28:05] They're all deferred retirement plans or deferred tax retirement plans under ERISA.

[00:28:11] So we kind of start big picture.

[00:28:13] But at the end of the day, what we're talking about here, and there can be a lot of garbly

[00:28:17] goop and all that, is we're just trying to do a Roth conversion.

[00:28:21] We're trying to just convert money over to Roth.

[00:28:24] And once we get in a Roth position, that account can be invested differently than the traditional

[00:28:30] piece.

[00:28:31] And it can be painful.

[00:28:33] I'm going to give you a killer freaking strategy here in a minute.

[00:28:36] But it can be painful because some people want to rip the bandaid off all at once, convert

[00:28:41] 500 grand to Roth, but they got to pay tax on 500 grand.

[00:28:44] And they're like, I don't want to do that.

[00:28:46] But so a concept we've been teaching for almost 10 years now is called Roth chunking.

[00:28:51] Roth chunking.

[00:28:52] It was born from Steven Spielberg's Goonies chunk.

[00:28:55] We love chunk of that show.

[00:28:56] But we want to chunk at this money in pieces.

[00:28:59] So we want to say, okay, if you got 500 grand sitting in a 401 A 401k tax deferred, I mean,

[00:29:05] we're going to pay tax when we pull it out.

[00:29:06] And I'm not 59 and a half yet.

[00:29:08] And I don't want to ever pay tax on this again.

[00:29:10] And I've got some strategies I want to really deploy here.

[00:29:13] Instead of doing 500 grand at once, we look at what bracket are you in now?

[00:29:18] And when is the next break point?

[00:29:20] Maybe we should only convert 50 grand this year.

[00:29:22] Maybe we can convert 125.

[00:29:24] So we're going to do planning.

[00:29:25] This time of year, we are swamped because any conversions have to be done before December

[00:29:30] 31st.

[00:29:30] So we want to be looking in the next two and a half months.

[00:29:33] What if we converted 100 grand?

[00:29:35] What would that do to your tax bill?

[00:29:36] What would it do to your marginal tax bracket?

[00:29:39] Where are you going to bounce into?

[00:29:40] And so we want to keep you under any big jumps on your tax bracket and get converted over

[00:29:46] to Roth as much as we can.

[00:29:47] So is it doable?

[00:29:49] Yes.

[00:29:50] You have to work with your advisor to make sure you don't chunk too much, convert too much

[00:29:54] and have a huge tax bill you're not prepared for.

[00:29:57] You want to understand what type of plan you're moving money in.

[00:30:00] Is it in a currently employed sponsor plan?

[00:30:02] Is it a leftover plan from a prior employer?

[00:30:05] Are you in a solo 401k strategy where you have more control?

[00:30:08] I have a lot of pilots.

[00:30:09] They balance from one airline to another.

[00:30:12] Once they move to a new airline, that unlocks that old 401k money.

[00:30:17] So now they can roll it out to a solo 401k inside your side hustle.

[00:30:21] So you can have multiple 401ks.

[00:30:23] So if we open up a side hustle for anything at all, even if it just breaks even, now I can

[00:30:28] open a solo 401k.

[00:30:30] Take any 401k rollover money, tax-free, no penalty, drop into a solo 401k.

[00:30:36] You control the checkbook.

[00:30:38] Now you're buying real assets that you can move the needle.

[00:30:41] Maybe it's private lending, crypto, something, a venture capital deal, a syndication that

[00:30:47] your normal stockbroker is not going to let you touch, self-directing.

[00:30:51] So I've got a whole podcast on this with hundreds of episodes.

[00:30:54] So anyway, the long story, I'm sorry, get right, I get going.

[00:30:56] There's, these are just huge rabbit holes is yes, we can convert.

[00:30:59] We want to do it strategically.

[00:31:01] Once we get it there, how are we going to invest it?

[00:31:03] Where are we going to roll it to?

[00:31:05] What are we going to roll it into?

[00:31:06] What type of account?

[00:31:07] It's world's your oyster.

[00:31:09] And if you're, again, your accountant isn't working with your advisor to try and build

[00:31:14] this strategy, we need to upgrade.

[00:31:16] Got a good, and it doesn't mean you've got to pay more.

[00:31:18] I have sometimes clients save money from their accountant that's been charging them way too

[00:31:22] much with no good advice.

[00:31:23] So I hope that helps, Ryan, and answer it like the options.

[00:31:26] Totally.

[00:31:27] Let's break down what is a 401A, because I know a lot of people may not have heard about

[00:31:32] them before.

[00:31:33] A 401A is a 401K.

[00:31:35] It's just, it's not a traditional company per se.

[00:31:38] It could be, and I was just pulling up a couple of definitions here too.

[00:31:42] It could be a government, a nonprofit, an educational institution is a 401A.

[00:31:48] If I go to work with a corporation, it's a 401K.

[00:31:52] Now there are some general differences, but it's a sponsored plan that has a lot of contributions

[00:32:01] from the employer, whatever type of institution they are.

[00:32:04] I'm trying to see if there's some missing link here that makes them more different or sexy.

[00:32:09] They're like a 401K.

[00:32:10] Let's not overthink it.

[00:32:11] I appreciate the clarification.

[00:32:13] No, that's great.

[00:32:14] And I love what you're saying there with, I call it bracketology.

[00:32:17] You know, we talk a lot on this show about real estate professional status and just being

[00:32:22] able to take a baseball bat to your W-2 income if you do it correctly.

[00:32:26] But on those years, you don't want to slam your adjusted gross income down to zero.

[00:32:30] You know, that doesn't make any sense.

[00:32:32] And so if you have a year where you've got some massive tax write-offs, it makes sense.

[00:32:36] And I love what you're saying about doing the Roth conversion strategy as sort of a steam

[00:32:39] relief valve to say, okay, no, let's get you back up into a higher tax bracket because

[00:32:44] it's graduated and it doesn't make sense to slam your tax, your adjusted gross income

[00:32:50] much below about $200,000, right?

[00:32:52] You're good.

[00:32:53] And again, you want to be looking in the seven brackets.

[00:32:56] There's two that have close to a 9% jump.

[00:33:00] And we want to make sure going up a bracket of 2.5% or 3% or 1.5%, that's cool.

[00:33:05] But when we hit those big 8% break points, we got to be careful and say, yeah, it's not

[00:33:10] worth chunking above that.

[00:33:11] So we want to kind of chunk, chunk, chunk up to that next break point and then we're

[00:33:15] out.

[00:33:15] And then we look at it again in next year.

[00:33:17] But if we're methodical about it and careful and we offset some of those chunks with some

[00:33:22] other tax strategies, now we can really get some traction and it just starts to snowball.

[00:33:28] Love that.

[00:33:29] Years ago, Mark, switching gears a little bit, I heard you talk about your HSA self-directed

[00:33:34] plan and how you put a real estate property in it and how your rental property is paying

[00:33:39] your health, you know, funding essentially your medical plan.

[00:33:43] Right.

[00:33:43] Can we kind of get into that?

[00:33:44] Because, you know, a lot of us at the airlines have Optum, HSA, and we've talked a lot in

[00:33:50] the show about HSAs being awesome because you get the triple tax, you know, don't tax,

[00:33:55] you know, putting it in and taking it out and it grows tax free.

[00:33:59] So you get the triple tax advantage.

[00:34:01] But I haven't really heard many people talk about how, yeah, they can put it in Optum and

[00:34:06] I'm sure Optum has some great investment selections like you can put in stocks, bonds, mutual funds

[00:34:10] or whatever.

[00:34:11] But I've never really heard many people talk to actually being able to take the HSA out

[00:34:17] and self-direct it necessarily like into non-traditional assets like real estate and syndications.

[00:34:22] Yeah.

[00:34:22] Love it.

[00:34:23] And by the way, everybody stay tuned.

[00:34:25] Listen, I'm going to drop the most killer freaking tax strategy you're going to love on a Roth

[00:34:29] chunk of 400 grand.

[00:34:31] Helped a client with it last year.

[00:34:32] All right.

[00:34:33] HSAs.

[00:34:34] Remember everybody, whether it's an HSA, 401k, IRA, Roth, ESA, an educational savings account.

[00:34:41] Any of those tax preferred accounts, whether they're tax free or tax deferred can be what's

[00:34:48] called self-directed.

[00:34:49] Many of you already know what that means, but at Fidelity, I can only invest in what they

[00:34:54] give me the choices to invest in.

[00:34:55] Stocks, bonds, mutual funds, ETFs.

[00:34:57] Great.

[00:34:57] But if I self-direct that account and I roll the money from Fidelity to a trust company that

[00:35:03] says, oh, you want to self-direct?

[00:35:05] Great.

[00:35:05] You can self-direct once it's over here and you roll the money over there.

[00:35:09] Old 401ks, IRAs, Roths, HSAs even.

[00:35:13] You can go to directed trust company, our trust company and open up an HSA, go to Optimum

[00:35:18] and go Optum, right?

[00:35:19] And say, hey, my HSA, roll it over here.

[00:35:22] You roll your HSA over to Optimum.

[00:35:24] No penalty, no tax.

[00:35:25] It's still in an HSA.

[00:35:26] It's just not sponsored by Optimum.

[00:35:29] It's sponsored by directed trust.

[00:35:31] Once the HSA is over there, now you can invest it however the hell you want.

[00:35:35] Notes, real estate.

[00:35:37] I'll give you some of the things I've been doing with my HSA over the last 10 years.

[00:35:40] And you can invest that HSA and just grow it.

[00:35:43] And like Monopoly, every time you pass go, you can put your next six grand in and your seven

[00:35:48] grand.

[00:35:48] And while you're healthy, you want to leave that money on the table.

[00:35:51] Let it ride.

[00:35:52] Let it ride.

[00:35:53] Let it ride.

[00:35:53] I've got clients with two, 300,000 sitting in an HSA.

[00:35:56] They just paid for their healthcare for life.

[00:35:58] You know, the average American over age 65 is going to spend over 250 grand in healthcare

[00:36:03] after they turn age 65.

[00:36:05] It is insane.

[00:36:07] I just did an entire training yesterday on Medicare and the rules of Medicare that you

[00:36:11] have to start using at age 65 and the cost of healthcare for it is insane.

[00:36:16] These HSAs are like gold.

[00:36:18] We do not want to touch them right now.

[00:36:20] We want to build them, blow them up.

[00:36:21] I'm freaking putting them on my crazy crypto strategies here and there too.

[00:36:25] But anyway, okay.

[00:36:27] So that's self-directing.

[00:36:28] I have one more question about HSA.

[00:36:31] One of the questions that were on the forum was a military pilot who's going to have TRICARE

[00:36:37] in retirement pay for his medical expenses.

[00:36:40] Is it still worth doing an HSA and why?

[00:36:42] Yeah, well, it depends.

[00:36:45] I know you guys hate that.

[00:36:46] It's a typical lawyer answer.

[00:36:48] It depends because here's why.

[00:36:49] I've got a lot of veterans that I speak at veteran groups for tax planning.

[00:36:53] A lot of veterans are so entrepreneurial.

[00:36:55] I mean, they get up at freaking 5 a.m. and kick ass.

[00:36:58] They're like ready to go.

[00:36:59] So I love my veterans and their tenacity for real estate, investing in small business.

[00:37:04] Some of them love the VA, but like the VA is good to me.

[00:37:07] They've had a great experience.

[00:37:08] They've got a good VA center where they live.

[00:37:10] They feel that the medical care is wonderful.

[00:37:13] And so going to an HSA and to fund it and build it requires you to go get regular health

[00:37:18] insurance.

[00:37:19] You have to get a high deductible plan to unlock the HSA.

[00:37:23] Now, can you do that and still have VA benefits?

[00:37:25] Sure.

[00:37:26] But you've got to go pay for insurance.

[00:37:27] And how many veterans want to go pay for health insurance when they've got the VA looking

[00:37:31] right at them?

[00:37:32] Well, I think that's the point.

[00:37:34] Like when you have a pilot working in the airlines, the airline is going to give them

[00:37:37] a high deductible plan with an HSA.

[00:37:40] Okay.

[00:37:40] But then they're also going to get the military retirement when they're done and then they're

[00:37:45] going to qualify for TRICARE.

[00:37:46] I don't know the military that well, but that's what it sounds like.

[00:37:49] So it's like, I think the pilot is saying, should I pay much attention to this HSA and

[00:37:54] invest in this thing while I'm at the airlines getting this plan when I know I've got TRICARE

[00:37:59] waiting for me in retirement?

[00:38:00] Okay.

[00:38:01] Yeah.

[00:38:01] That's the scenario.

[00:38:02] Very good.

[00:38:03] I love the way your angle on that.

[00:38:05] For most people, they're not going to have a high deductible plan paid for them for the

[00:38:09] entrepreneur out there.

[00:38:10] So point number one is if you're going to be paying for health insurance out of your own

[00:38:14] pocket, you got to really decide, is this worth it when I've got VA benefits or TRICARE

[00:38:18] sitting there for me?

[00:38:19] Now, point number two is, well, hey, the airline's going to pay for my high deductible

[00:38:23] plan.

[00:38:23] That's not costing me.

[00:38:24] Should I put money in my HSA and self-direct it and grow it and build it when I've got TRICARE

[00:38:31] waiting?

[00:38:31] This is where, again, there may be medical costs that you're going to incur that TRICARE

[00:38:36] doesn't entirely cover.

[00:38:38] Maybe it's dental, eyes, chiropractic, some forms of surgery, physical therapy, long-term

[00:38:45] care.

[00:38:45] So there could be things that you're like, I really, this HSA could pay for some things

[00:38:50] that I know TRICARE is going to leave me hanging on.

[00:38:53] Now, if TRICARE, and I don't know all the provisions of all the VA benefits that could be

[00:38:57] out there in TRICARE.

[00:38:58] So if you're like, hey, Mark, this is the creme de la creme, there is nothing I'm going

[00:39:02] to need an HSA for, then don't do it.

[00:39:04] But if you're like, no, no, no, no, I can use this HSA for some medical expenses that TRICARE

[00:39:08] is not going to cover, cool.

[00:39:10] And if you, at age 59 and a half, if you don't use the HSA for medical, it turns into an IRA.

[00:39:15] If you die, it goes to your spouse's HSA.

[00:39:18] If you don't have a spouse, it goes to your, an IRA to your kids as an inherited IRA.

[00:39:22] So you're not going to lose the money.

[00:39:23] We got to do a whole episode on HSAs.

[00:39:26] Oh, I freaking love them.

[00:39:27] I love them.

[00:39:27] Yeah.

[00:39:28] Thanks.

[00:39:28] What I've been doing for the last 10 years, right?

[00:39:31] You met, you saw, I've got this cute little rental property in South Chicago, still have

[00:39:35] it.

[00:39:35] I bought over 10 years ago in my HSA.

[00:39:38] So I have an LLC owned by my HSA.

[00:39:40] It's the cutest little meth lab.

[00:39:42] I mean, it's adorable.

[00:39:42] These guys paying cash every week.

[00:39:44] I love these guys.

[00:39:45] Lots of bling.

[00:39:46] They're just great guys.

[00:39:54] Braces, chiropractic eyes, whatever, or I can let that money ride and let it grow.

[00:39:59] Second strategy, about three years ago, I pooled my HSA with some of the kids' Roth IRAs

[00:40:04] and we started a crypto mine.

[00:40:06] So we've got a seven video card crypto mine.

[00:40:09] Just every four hours, we're making Bitcoin in our HSA with a crypto mine.

[00:40:15] Third, I'm a huge fan of Yellowstone.

[00:40:16] Love John Dutton.

[00:40:17] Think he's doing a good job protecting the land up there.

[00:40:19] And if you're a Yellowstone fan, I have a property up in Idaho and I bought cows.

[00:40:25] I have a friend that owns, you know, he's a rancher and I'm like, Hey, I want to buy

[00:40:28] some cows.

[00:40:29] Can I put them in your herd?

[00:40:30] Yeah, you can throw them in my herd.

[00:40:31] I'm like, okay.

[00:40:32] So I opened up an LLC, Kohler Dutton livestock and go to the Idaho state website and look it

[00:40:36] up.

[00:40:37] So I bought Kohler Dutton livestock owned by my HSA and went and bought five cows.

[00:40:43] Now they were pregnant, which means they're going to have five more cows.

[00:40:46] And then they play around in the field in the summer when there's a bull running around.

[00:40:49] I hope I don't have to explain birds and the bees to you guys.

[00:40:51] And then I ended up with 15 cows next spring, sold all my cows inside my HSA for about a

[00:40:57] 13% return in less than 12 months.

[00:41:00] You can do cattle ranching.

[00:41:02] You can do crypto mines.

[00:41:03] You can do real estate.

[00:41:04] I'm so glad you said, by the way, can you get a little bit more enthusiasm about this?

[00:41:09] I think you're putting us to sleep.

[00:41:11] No, I'm just joking.

[00:41:13] So you talked about cattle ranchers and I have to bring it up because there is a post

[00:41:17] in the forum two days ago.

[00:41:19] Any cattle ranchers in the group, particularly with anyone with knowledge of taxes and whatnot.

[00:41:25] Okay.

[00:41:25] You just gave a tax strategy, buy your cattle and your HSA, and then they're tax free.

[00:41:30] And then hopefully they multiply and you can make a bunch of money and all that.

[00:41:35] But do you have any other words of wisdom to somebody who just asked an open-ended question

[00:41:41] like that about taxes and cattle ranching?

[00:41:43] Yeah.

[00:41:44] Oh, cattle ranching.

[00:41:45] Let me say two things.

[00:41:46] First on HSAs.

[00:41:47] I know I went down and threw out a bunch there, everybody.

[00:41:50] Let's take a breath.

[00:41:51] Sorry.

[00:41:52] This requires me to also take a breath.

[00:41:55] Health savings accounts are amazing.

[00:41:59] Embrace them.

[00:42:00] Understand what's invested in.

[00:42:02] If you know something better that you can invest in, even if it's your brother-in-law's

[00:42:06] landscaping business down the street, take your HSA, roll it into a self-directed platform,

[00:42:13] a new account with directed IRA right now is 300 bucks.

[00:42:16] Open up an account, roll the money in there, no tax, no penalty, and start investing in

[00:42:21] what you know.

[00:42:22] Get over to our directed IRA podcast, start consuming the first 20 episodes where we walk

[00:42:27] through all the basics, prohibited transactions, how to open an account, how to invest, multi-member

[00:42:32] LLCs, la, la, la, la, la.

[00:42:34] That's the beauty of self-directing.

[00:42:36] It does not have...

[00:42:37] I just...

[00:42:37] When someone says, can you do that?

[00:42:39] First thing I do is I'm going to try to do it.

[00:42:41] I want to do what I'm teaching.

[00:42:43] So if I'm going to say you can do it, I'm going to freaking go do it and improve it

[00:42:47] and stand behind it.

[00:42:49] I haven't been audited.

[00:42:50] It's cool.

[00:42:50] I got clients doing even more crazy things than I do.

[00:42:53] So I think we can be a lot more creative with our HSAs than we realize.

[00:43:00] And it doesn't have to be crazy like some of the ideas I threw out.

[00:43:03] And it's super exciting.

[00:43:05] And you asked me something else, damn it.

[00:43:07] I lost what you said.

[00:43:08] No, no, you're good.

[00:43:09] You're good.

[00:43:10] No, we were just going from a normal topic of buying cattle and your HSA to...

[00:43:15] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:43:16] Ranching.

[00:43:17] Maybe what cattle ranching is all about and some tax strategies there.

[00:43:21] Here's the problem with cattle ranchers.

[00:43:23] They start to love their cows.

[00:43:24] Okay?

[00:43:25] Yeah.

[00:43:25] You know, they can't get rid of...

[00:43:26] It's literally the show Yellowstone is so...

[00:43:29] That's why it's so powerful.

[00:43:30] Anybody that's lived on a farm or even owns a cat or dog, they understand John Dutton.

[00:43:35] That guy cannot get rid of his cows or his land.

[00:43:37] And it's funny.

[00:43:39] I'll meet...

[00:43:39] We work with ranchers and they're all the time.

[00:43:42] And they're how big's your herd.

[00:43:43] It doesn't matter how big my herd is.

[00:43:45] It's the price of beef up.

[00:43:46] Sell.

[00:43:47] You know, make some money on this thing.

[00:43:49] But they just...

[00:43:49] It's a lifestyle.

[00:43:51] It's a belief.

[00:43:52] It's a badge of freedom to own land and have livestock.

[00:43:57] But it's great money.

[00:43:58] Lots of great strategies in there.

[00:44:00] And it doesn't fall under the hobby loss rules.

[00:44:03] You can lose money in a farm, lose money in rentals and not get audited.

[00:44:08] It's very common.

[00:44:09] So...

[00:44:10] But again, material participation, being involved.

[00:44:12] And it doesn't take a full-time job to do that.

[00:44:15] And so you want to understand the rules.

[00:44:17] And I'm right now working on a little hobby farm.

[00:44:20] I love being on the land.

[00:44:23] So...

[00:44:23] You just brought up a really great subject.

[00:44:26] And that is hobby loss.

[00:44:27] Can you explain that to the listeners?

[00:44:29] You know, you start a business.

[00:44:30] You can lose money for a couple of years.

[00:44:32] But eventually, you got to start turning a profit.

[00:44:33] Otherwise, the IRS is going to go, nah, nah, nah.

[00:44:35] This is a hobby, right?

[00:44:36] So how does that work?

[00:44:37] And you said it perfectly.

[00:44:39] If I start a business and lose money after the first two years, the IRS is like,

[00:44:44] either you're doing this to save taxes or you really suck at business.

[00:44:47] So we're going to let you keep losing money.

[00:44:52] That's fine.

[00:44:52] Be an idiot.

[00:44:53] But you can't take that loss and write it off against your other income in the third year.

[00:44:57] We're going to just suspend it.

[00:44:59] We're just going to leave it there.

[00:45:00] When you start making money, you can harvest that loss.

[00:45:03] So you get to carry forward the loss in that hobby in the third year until you do show profit.

[00:45:08] The IRS is just like, we're not going to let you milk this because something's weird.

[00:45:12] Either you got to figure this out or you're really trying to play a game here with us.

[00:45:15] So we like to see clients that are in that situation show a little profit in the third

[00:45:20] year, even if it's a hundred bucks or a thousand bucks or whatever the numbers are,

[00:45:23] how many zeros involved.

[00:45:24] So let's show a little profit in the third year, get back to the fourth year.

[00:45:27] Maybe there's a loss and we got to show profit again.

[00:45:29] And if you start plopping this into a 1065 or an 1120s, your chances of it ought to go

[00:45:35] down dramatically.

[00:45:36] And the hobby loss exposure, because hobby losses usually end up on a schedule C as in

[00:45:41] Charlie.

[00:45:41] And that's where we don't want it.

[00:45:43] Highest audited form in the tax code, schedule C.

[00:45:47] Let's stay off of that.

[00:45:48] Now with rental property, hobby loss doesn't apply.

[00:45:51] Boom.

[00:45:52] In an IRA or 401k, hobby loss doesn't apply.

[00:45:55] In ranching, hobby loss doesn't apply.

[00:45:58] So you want to find your angle and kind of got to watch out for that.

[00:46:02] Can you talk more about a hobby loss not applying in rental property?

[00:46:06] A lot of our listeners own rental property.

[00:46:08] Yeah.

[00:46:08] Yeah.

[00:46:08] So it doesn't, it's like, why is a banana yellow?

[00:46:12] You know, end of story.

[00:46:15] So you can just continue losing money in a, in a, in a rental property for year over year

[00:46:20] over year over year and keep writing it off.

[00:46:21] If you were to think about it and why the IRS is okay with that, because they know they're

[00:46:26] going to get their money.

[00:46:27] See, the reason why a rental property loses money is because you're taking depreciation.

[00:46:31] And we're going to talk about a loophole here in a minute and a great strategy that does

[00:46:36] not require a real estate professional.

[00:46:38] But if I'm getting losses and offsetting my other income from rental property, the tax

[00:46:45] code says that's cool because someday you're going to sell that rental property.

[00:46:49] And over the history of America in the last 90 years, real estate goes up in value.

[00:46:54] We're going to be okay.

[00:46:55] So when you go to sell that property, we're going to get depreciation recapture and we're

[00:46:59] going to get capital gain.

[00:46:59] And so go ahead, knock yourself out, take those losses, but we're going to get our money

[00:47:03] back.

[00:47:04] And depreciation recapture is at 25%.

[00:47:06] So unless you do a 1031 exchange or charitable remainder trust, you're going to have to pay

[00:47:11] the piper at some point and it can be painful.

[00:47:15] So that's why the hobby loss I don't think really applies is because there is that deferred

[00:47:20] gain sitting in the real estate that will be harvested at some point.

[00:47:24] Even if some people that do a 1031, it's rare they're going to do a second 1031.

[00:47:29] The IRS is going to get their money.

[00:47:30] So that plays out.

[00:47:32] That's excellent.

[00:47:33] Let's switch gears a little bit back to self-directing because since I know you're an expert in that

[00:47:36] and set up your own company to do that and help people with the podcast.

[00:47:40] Let's talk about one thing that I heard from you about nine years ago maybe is the concept

[00:47:45] of buying rental property in your IRA.

[00:47:47] So let's cover that ground from 30,000 feet.

[00:47:50] And then one thing though that I thought was super interesting that I learned from you is

[00:47:55] buying a vacation rental in your IRA, putting it in service and letting it make you money.

[00:48:01] And then when you retire, taking a contribution from your retirement account or sorry, distribution

[00:48:07] from your retirement account to then recapture that rental property into your personal use.

[00:48:12] So you're kind of putting it in your IRA, but then when you retire, you actually get that

[00:48:16] property back to use personally if it's a place that you want to hang your hat when you retire.

[00:48:20] Yes.

[00:48:20] Love it.

[00:48:21] Okay.

[00:48:21] Too great.

[00:48:22] And they're related, obviously in the same family of conversation.

[00:48:25] So, okay.

[00:48:26] Number one, buying rental property in a retirement account.

[00:48:28] Back to the same concept.

[00:48:30] It could be an HSA, 401k, IRA, Roth, ESA.

[00:48:34] Any of those tax deferred accounts, the basic steps would be involved is the clients will show

[00:48:39] up and go, I need an LLC.

[00:48:40] I'm buying a rental with my IRA.

[00:48:41] Slow down, tiger.

[00:48:42] Where are you going to buy this rental?

[00:48:44] Well, I haven't found one yet.

[00:48:45] Okay.

[00:48:45] Where are you going to be looking?

[00:48:46] Oh, I'm going to do it in Minneapolis.

[00:48:48] Okay.

[00:48:48] So we want our clients to first identify at least the general area they're going to be

[00:48:52] looking for their rental properties.

[00:48:53] Some place, maybe it's a hub where they're flying to quite a bit.

[00:48:56] La, la, la, la.

[00:48:57] Maybe there's a real estate professional strategy in the background.

[00:49:00] It doesn't matter about the real.

[00:49:01] And I should say that it doesn't matter about real estate professional because this is going

[00:49:05] to be your IRA property.

[00:49:06] It's not going to affect real estate professional status.

[00:49:08] You can't use the hours for real estate professional status.

[00:49:11] This is an investment in your IRA and you want to buy real estate because it's better than

[00:49:16] freaking Microsoft stock, which 99% of the time is going to be the case.

[00:49:19] So you identify where you want to buy your rentals.

[00:49:22] We set up an LLC in that state where you're going to be making the offer.

[00:49:26] We fund the LLC and create the LLC with the IRA as the owner or multiple IRAs.

[00:49:32] It could be your spouse's Roth, your kid's ESA, your old 401k, an old blah, blah.

[00:49:37] I mean, we can have six different retirement accounts funding this LLC.

[00:49:41] So we create an LLC funded by the retirement accounts.

[00:49:43] You're the manager of that LLC.

[00:49:45] Very common to do.

[00:49:46] Total cost to our law firm to pull off the setup and the consulting with a comfort letter

[00:49:51] telling you what to do and don't.

[00:49:52] A couple grand.

[00:49:53] I mean, $1,500, $2,000 max.

[00:49:55] And you get your LLC going.

[00:49:57] It's funded by the retirement accounts.

[00:49:59] You control the checkbook.

[00:50:00] Call up your realtor.

[00:50:01] I'm ready to go, man.

[00:50:02] Let's go make an offer.

[00:50:03] You go buy a rental property.

[00:50:04] You hire a property management.

[00:50:06] You cannot manage it yourself.

[00:50:07] That would be prohibited.

[00:50:08] So work into your model when you're assessing the ROI on these properties.

[00:50:11] 10% management fee.

[00:50:13] Work it into the books.

[00:50:14] And you're like, okay, this is going to work.

[00:50:16] It's going to cash flow.

[00:50:17] All of that cash flow goes back into the LLC.

[00:50:19] LLC, there's no tax ever.

[00:50:22] And now there could be UDFI depending on the structure.

[00:50:25] So we would talk through that a little bit.

[00:50:26] That's called unrelated debt financed income.

[00:50:28] But nine times out of 10, there's going to be no tax.

[00:50:31] You're going to get a much better ROI of 20 to 25%, which is very common with a rental

[00:50:36] property once you add in all the pieces and parts, cash flow, appreciation, mortgage reduction

[00:50:42] from the tenant, all those goodies.

[00:50:43] So we're going to see that asset class grow inside your IRA, tax-free or tax-deferred.

[00:50:49] And those are the steps.

[00:50:51] We have clients do it every day.

[00:50:52] And I own rental property in my retirement account and HSA.

[00:50:57] So it's not that hard.

[00:50:58] So now this second home, retirement home, I don't want to say retirement home, but vacation

[00:51:04] home and retirement strategy is this.

[00:51:07] It works best with the Roth IRA.

[00:51:09] So you see, you get your client to do maybe a chunk or two.

[00:51:13] They get a hundred grand into a Roth position.

[00:51:15] Maybe they're and their spouse is up Roth, whatever.

[00:51:17] So you have a Roth IRA, let's say with a hundred K.

[00:51:20] You identify the property that you're like, you know what?

[00:51:22] I kind of like to live in that someday.

[00:51:24] Maybe it's 10 years out, 15 years out, but I want that property and I want to lock it

[00:51:30] down.

[00:51:30] And I don't have enough cashflow right now personally to support the acquisition, but I've got a

[00:51:36] hundred grand sitting in a Roth IRA.

[00:51:38] So you're going to open that LLC and you're going to use a non-recourse loan.

[00:51:42] There's banks out there all day long that'll loan to a Roth IRA.

[00:51:45] Your credit score doesn't matter.

[00:51:47] You're not personally guaranteeing this.

[00:51:48] They usually want about 40% down.

[00:51:50] So with a hundred thousand dollar Roth, you could buy about a $220,000 rental property

[00:51:54] that may get you a condo somewhere on a close to a beach somewhere.

[00:51:58] I don't know.

[00:51:59] You may want to add a few more zeros.

[00:52:02] I don't know.

[00:52:02] But the point is you're looking at about 40% down with your Roth IRA through the LLC.

[00:52:07] Banks will fund the rest and you buy this property and you let the cashflow pay for it.

[00:52:12] And instead of a normal rental where you want the cashflow over and above the debt service,

[00:52:17] you throw everything at the debt.

[00:52:18] So you do a Dave Ramsey 15 year strategy.

[00:52:22] You freaking pay down that mortgage as fast as you can inside the Roth IRA.

[00:52:26] And then mysteriously in 15 years, this Roth owns the property free and clear.

[00:52:30] And once you're ready after age 59 and a half, you can walk in one day and go, all right,

[00:52:35] I'm done renting this place.

[00:52:37] Deed the property to yourself, completely tax-free.

[00:52:40] Your Roth just distributed instead of five grand, it distributed you a house and it's tax-free.

[00:52:45] It doesn't even show up on your tax return.

[00:52:48] Mark, I know that you've got something you've been dying to tell us.

[00:52:51] So thank you for saving it to the end.

[00:52:54] Thank you everybody for sticking with me.

[00:52:55] Hopefully we, and I'll point you in some direction here in a minute, folks that want

[00:53:00] to learn more and just start increasing your knowledge in these areas.

[00:53:03] You guys probably talk about the short-term rental loophole here a little bit, right?

[00:53:07] Okay.

[00:53:08] And because we can bypass the whole real estate professional strategy.

[00:53:12] And sometimes real estate professional strategy works.

[00:53:15] If you have a spouse that's willing to get on board with that idea, great.

[00:53:18] But what I love is the short-term rental strategy because you can unlock it very easily and dial

[00:53:25] it up or dial it down as needed.

[00:53:26] So this last year had a client that had a four to $500,000 traditional IRA and was wanting

[00:53:36] to go do a hard money lending with it.

[00:53:39] And they have a, they've already deployed it.

[00:53:42] This, this is water under the bridge.

[00:53:45] So I'm telling you, this is way back, you know, 18 months ago when the strategy was hatched.

[00:53:49] We have clients that are doing hard money lending all day long, 12 and two, 12% annual

[00:53:54] interest, two points, one on the front, one on the back.

[00:53:57] If they turn that loan twice in a year, they're looking at a 14% rate of return on their money

[00:54:02] and their Roth.

[00:54:03] You start doing the math on that over 10 years, you got a million dollar Roth right away.

[00:54:07] So anyway, so, so this is a woman, she wanted to do some hard money lending with her, her

[00:54:12] IRA, but we knew we wanted it in a Roth position because we never wanted to pay tax on that money

[00:54:17] again.

[00:54:17] So we're, we do the analysis and if we chunked it, it was going to put her in freaking, you

[00:54:22] know, the highest bracket, 37% if we ripped the bandaid off.

[00:54:25] So we said, what's our alternative here?

[00:54:27] Well, ironically over on the side, she had a duplex that she was looking to unload, had

[00:54:32] about 300 grand sitting in it.

[00:54:34] And she said, I'm, I've been thinking about a 1031.

[00:54:37] We're like, all right, all right.

[00:54:39] So let's 1031, the duplex, this long-term rental, she wasn't a real estate professional,

[00:54:44] wasn't getting any, you know, benefit out of that.

[00:54:46] And let's 1031 into two Airbnbs in a community.

[00:54:51] We had one picked out that was very strong for a vacation rental and no HOAs involved.

[00:54:58] So we were going to be safe in the long run there.

[00:55:00] So we 1031 over into two Airbnbs.

[00:55:03] Okay.

[00:55:03] So remember we got the Roth chunk over on the side.

[00:55:05] We're going to pay tax on 400 grand.

[00:55:07] And if we're not careful, use the 1031, pay no tax on this property that would have been

[00:55:12] had about a $300,000 gain dropped three to three to three 50 in cash proceeds from the

[00:55:19] 1031 into two Airbnbs.

[00:55:22] Now she came out of pocket about a hundred grand on each one of them, threw in a pool,

[00:55:25] got them furnished, yada, yada.

[00:55:27] And then we cost segment.

[00:55:29] So once we cost segregation, those two properties, we had close to $650,000 of depreciation.

[00:55:36] Each one of these properties was 800 grand.

[00:55:39] We peel the land out.

[00:55:39] We look at the building.

[00:55:40] We do the cost seg, yada, yada.

[00:55:42] And so now we're sitting, if we do it right on our planning at the end of last year, we're

[00:55:48] like, okay, in 2023, we can create these two Airbnbs, harvest a five to $600,000 depreciation

[00:55:55] deduction.

[00:55:56] What's the trick?

[00:55:57] She has to show material participation.

[00:56:00] Now there's seven tests for material participation.

[00:56:03] One of them is, which I love, there's one, three, and four that are the easiest for folks.

[00:56:07] Number three is I put in a hundred hours and more than anyone else.

[00:56:11] And if we group them under the grouping election, which I'm sure you guys talk about when it comes

[00:56:15] to real estate professionals, 469 AF6.

[00:56:17] So we're going to group the two rentals.

[00:56:19] So all she has to do is a hundred hours in combination over the two of them.

[00:56:24] And that's going to be easy.

[00:56:25] That's interior decorating.

[00:56:26] That's going in and checking on the furniture and slapping some paint on there, overseeing

[00:56:30] the pool installer.

[00:56:31] So we can drop a hundred hours onto these two rentals and show that no other cleaner or

[00:56:38] landscaper, one individual, not company, but one individual.

[00:56:41] Put more than a hundred hours than her, which no one did.

[00:56:43] We unlock all those losses as if she was a real estate professional and you can do it for,

[00:56:50] it's a year by year analysis.

[00:56:51] So in 2023, boom, we chunk 400 grand into Roth.

[00:56:55] Boom.

[00:56:56] We do a 1031 by two Airbnbs, throw in 50 hours on each property in the last quarter of 2023,

[00:57:03] create that smoothie, get blended up that smoothie on the 1040 and wiped out.

[00:57:11] She paid $12,000 in tax on some ancillary income and did the whole thing tax-free.

[00:57:18] Now it takes a little forward planning, but now she's sitting on two Airbnbs that are

[00:57:22] cash flowing.

[00:57:23] And at the very least, she can harvest those and take out her profit if she wanted to.

[00:57:28] This year, she's not going to claim it.

[00:57:30] This year, she's not a real estate professional or going to material participate.

[00:57:33] She's got a property management in there.

[00:57:35] Done.

[00:57:35] Done.

[00:57:35] She could convert it to long-term rental if she wanted to.

[00:57:38] All those options are available to her, but we harvest that right off.

[00:57:42] Now we're sitting on a Roth IRA deployed in hard money right at this moment.

[00:57:47] Where's my pen?

[00:57:47] I got to do a pen drop.

[00:57:48] This is so great because the strategies, it's a number of strategies that we've talked about

[00:57:52] on this show over many episodes.

[00:57:54] We've talked about cost segregation studies.

[00:57:56] We've talked about real estate professional status.

[00:57:58] We've talked about 1031s.

[00:57:59] And you just so beautifully summed that up into a ballet, a pirouette.

[00:58:04] A smoothie.

[00:58:05] What's your favorite type of smoothie?

[00:58:07] Orange Julius.

[00:58:08] You know, I go back to the 80s.

[00:58:09] I love my Orange Julius.

[00:58:12] Fun fact, I have a smoothie every single day.

[00:58:14] Oh, really?

[00:58:15] I do.

[00:58:16] Strawberry, banana, protein, and almond milk.

[00:58:18] He makes a good one.

[00:58:20] I always have them when I'm in the office.

[00:58:21] Yeah, that's right.

[00:58:22] You've had them, Tate.

[00:58:23] You're first-hand witness to this.

[00:58:24] You come to the office in Seattle.

[00:58:26] There you go.

[00:58:27] I'll make a smoothie for you.

[00:58:28] Mark, we appreciate so much you coming on, sharing all this gold.

[00:58:32] I hope we can have you back on.

[00:58:34] Maybe we could do it at an HSA-only episode.

[00:58:36] Talk about all the different airline health savings plans that are associated with our

[00:58:42] employers.

[00:58:43] But that's enough for today.

[00:58:45] I think people got a ton out of this.

[00:58:47] Can you tell people how to find out more about you?

[00:58:49] You bet.

[00:58:49] Thank you so much.

[00:58:50] One thing I'd recommend for everybody, if any of this is struck in a chord and you're

[00:58:54] like, oh my gosh, my advisor's not talking to me this way, or I don't know if they can.

[00:58:59] Get a second opinion.

[00:59:00] Do what we call a comprehensive tax consultation with our law firm.

[00:59:04] You can meet with one of our 14 tax lawyers on Zoom.

[00:59:07] They're going to meet with you several hours depending on your asset portfolio.

[00:59:11] Because the more you have, the more work it's going to take.

[00:59:14] But at most, it could range from $1,500 to maybe $4,000 for an attorney focused on your

[00:59:21] plan for your life with a trifecta tax analysis.

[00:59:25] Look at your returns.

[00:59:26] And if we don't save you in taxes, if not multiple, what you paid us, we'd fail.

[00:59:31] So I want that little comprehensive consultation.

[00:59:33] Then you can take it back to your advisors.

[00:59:35] Use it.

[00:59:36] You don't have to pay a big retainer and stay with us.

[00:59:38] You may fall in love with our team and a customer service.

[00:59:41] But for those of you that haven't had a good overall look or plan, go to KKOS lawyers, KKOS

[00:59:48] as in Sam, lawyers.com and set up one of those comprehensive consults.

[00:59:52] And if you just want to start learning about everything we're trying to do, Main Street

[00:59:57] Business Podcast, the Directed IRA Podcast.

[01:00:00] If you just Google Mark J.

[01:00:01] Kohler, especially on YouTube, you're going to see video after video.

[01:00:05] I've got three or four books.

[01:00:07] And we've got a huge event.

[01:00:09] The first weekend in December, it's Tax and Legal 360.

[01:00:13] It's a great event here in Phoenix.

[01:00:15] And we've taken down the Scott Hotel, the entire hotel.

[01:00:18] There'll be over 20 speakers, 30 classes, parties, networking opportunities.

[01:00:24] It's where business owners meet other advisors.

[01:00:27] So you can come and talk to other advisors, sit in a cost seg.

[01:00:30] Class, sit in a real estate class, sit in a business building class, and just have a great

[01:00:34] time.

[01:00:34] Who doesn't like Scottsdale in December?

[01:00:36] So come check it out, taxillegal360.com.

[01:00:39] You guys should come.

[01:00:40] I'd love you to come down here for three days.

[01:00:43] Well, thanks so much, Mark, for coming on.

[01:00:45] Appreciate your time.

[01:00:46] I know the listeners got a lot out of this.

[01:00:48] So thanks again.

[01:00:49] Appreciate it.

[01:00:49] Thank you so much.

[01:00:50] You guys are doing a great job.

[01:00:51] I love your style and love to come back here.

[01:00:55] Thank you so much for coming on.

[01:00:56] All right.

[01:00:56] We'll talk to you later.

[01:00:57] See you.

[01:00:57] See you.

[01:00:58] We'll talk to you soon.

[01:00:58] Bye.

[01:00:59] Bye.

[01:00:59] Bye.

[01:00:59] Bye.

[01:00:59] Bye.

[01:01:00] Bye.

[01:01:00] Bye.

[01:01:01] Bye.

[01:01:01] Bye.

[01:01:02] Bye.

[01:01:02] Bye.